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Tuesday, 1 Nisan, 5784
  |  April 9, 2024

Is it Time to Talk About Class Shuls in Crown Heights?

Op-Ed by Rabbi Gershon Avtzon: "It was very shocking to me, as the years went by, to see the phenomenon of “class-shuls” opening up on every block of Crown Heights." Full Story

Photo: Muli Berger

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Ignoring the real reason
February 7, 2024 10:07 am

The authors is ignoring the primary reason most people in Crown Heights don’t step foot in 770: The fact that it has been taken over by a band of crazies who control every aspect of the premises. Only a complete reset and eviction will help return 770 to what it was — a home for every chossid.

Read the whole article
Reply to  Ignoring the real reason
February 7, 2024 10:47 am

Read the entire article. He is pro class shuls.

When something is holy
Reply to  Ignoring the real reason
February 7, 2024 10:56 am

You go there no matter what. Everyone can find a time if the day that they can go

I did
Reply to  Ignoring the real reason
February 7, 2024 1:45 pm

I did read the whole article. Sure, he justifies the existence of class shuls, but he completely ignores the disaster that is 770 today.

I’ve been there
Reply to  Ignoring the real reason
February 7, 2024 4:26 pm

Everything is fine. Just loshon Hora.

770 - the Rebbe’s shul - kedusha
Reply to  Ignoring the real reason
February 7, 2024 5:13 pm

See Likutei Sichos vol. 32, p. 24-25.

No one can take that away.

Simple solution
February 7, 2024 10:13 am

Expand 770 Legally

every morning
Reply to  Simple solution
February 7, 2024 3:42 pm

every morning i daven in 770 (for over 10 years now, maybe 15); there is no shortage of room; every morning from 600 am to 800 am, anyway.

Confused
February 7, 2024 10:15 am

With all due respect, these class shuls are the best thing that has happened in crown heights. How nice is it that people have a shul to go to with people their age, for shabbos, farbrengans and just frum guys socializing. It’s a beautiful thing.
Also, 770 is full every shabbos. If all class shuls shut down, there would be no space.

Read the article
Reply to  Confused
February 7, 2024 10:42 am

Did you read the ENTIRE article?
That is exactly what he wrote…

Did you read?
Reply to  Confused
February 7, 2024 11:24 am

you obviously just assumed the article on the title

He’s agreeing with you.
Reply to  Confused
February 7, 2024 11:27 am

The article is in support of the beautiful concept of the class shuls.

helooo??? anybody home???
Reply to  Confused
February 7, 2024 11:53 am

bro, did you reed the artical???

Have you been to the balagan that is 770?
February 7, 2024 10:26 am

Seemingly not…

Love it!
February 7, 2024 10:34 am

I share similar sentiments,
Thank you Rabbi Avtzon for sharing your thoughts. Always an inspiration!

is it time to talk about
February 7, 2024 10:36 am

the shidduch crisis

I agree
Reply to  is it time to talk about
February 7, 2024 1:30 pm

He’s spoken about every other topic under the sun except the most significant of them all

Why wait
Reply to  I agree
February 7, 2024 2:09 pm

Write one yourself then, if it’s so important.

Yes
Reply to  Why wait
February 8, 2024 11:10 am

I have!

Expand 770!
February 7, 2024 10:44 am

The community has grown exponentially since the those days, b”h. 770 is not large enough to fit the CH community.

Maybe if it was expanded people would not feel the need to open Class Shuls in the first place?

Maybe if 770 was run properly, and the “heads” of the community got their act together, it would have been expanded…

Welcome to the CH reality.

Now that all the world’s problems have been solved
February 7, 2024 10:48 am

Let’s lament about where people daven on shabbos…

Sense of Community
February 7, 2024 10:53 am

I could not disagree more! You write that women have a place to feel part of the community yet that is untrue! Young women and girls are not welcome in most class shuls and therefore are left out of the whole shul scene to begin with. They are at home with their babies or friends and have no place to go! Painfully, it is only contributing to the furtherance of the divide in Crown Heights. Is this really. the solution??

Hmmm.
Reply to  Sense of Community
February 7, 2024 12:21 pm

We woman with young babies are home by ourselves all Shabbos!

Join us!
Reply to  Sense of Community
February 7, 2024 4:04 pm

I’d like to introduce you to Chevra Ahavas Yisroel Shul with a booming women’s section. Try it out. (Before you judge)

Delusional
February 7, 2024 11:13 am

To be frank, this is the most delusional post I have read in a long time. The author, as I read from his previous post is an apologist for the tunnel diggers or as others call it wall bangers. These misguided and unwell youth have been desecrating Beis Rabeinu for 30 years. Turning 770 into their own personal playground with giant yellow flags as if it’s a circus show, creating imaginary “shvills” physically assaulting chassidim in the Rebbe’s shul. The Gaboim of the shull who have been dragging the Rebbe in court for years have been perpetuating this behavior. The… Read more »

Dragged into the court case.
Reply to  Delusional
February 7, 2024 12:16 pm

I’m not so sure the gaboim initiated the court case.
But were forced to countersue.

If Merkoz would agree to speak to the gaboim 770 would be expanded.

Did you?
Reply to  Dragged into the court case.
February 7, 2024 3:54 pm

Did you read my comment or just the headline?

Read the article
Reply to  Delusional
February 7, 2024 12:27 pm

did you read the article or just the headline?

of course
Reply to  Read the article
February 7, 2024 4:22 pm

i read it. you wrote opinions not facts.

Just a thought
February 7, 2024 11:13 am

Maybe if…
1. 770 would be a functional spacious place, that…
2. Would not be run by a bunch of violent crazies.
More people would feel inclined to visit?

Really?
February 7, 2024 11:14 am

This article is so out of touch from reality it’s scary!
You’re holding on to hergeishim from 30+ years ago and demanding that ppl who never experienced that to have the same feeling you’re desperately clinging to.
You gotta acclimate bru

Read the article
Reply to  Really?
February 7, 2024 12:28 pm

did you?

I don't think it's his hergaishim
Reply to  Really?
February 8, 2024 12:49 am

If you learn and internalize Kuntres Rabeinu Shebibavel, it’s very real stuff

OUT OF TOWN
February 7, 2024 11:14 am

It’s quite surprising to see an individual from outside the Crown Heights area offering advice on local matters. It might be more beneficial to focus on concerns within their own communities. 770 became a place infested with very very dysfunctional people.. wake up

A member of a class shul
February 7, 2024 11:22 am

Until 770 is normal nobody wants to go there it’s a zoo

every morning
Reply to  A member of a class shul
February 7, 2024 3:46 pm

i daven every weekday shacharis, I am starting to see shovel lapel pins now

Amein
February 7, 2024 11:26 am

And for you too. Lovely article!

Resident.
February 7, 2024 11:35 am

Sadly many in 770 talk between Mincha & Mariv, On both Friday night and on Shabbos afternoon. In most class shuls there are organized shiurim. This is extremely important.

In reply to "Resident."
Reply to  Resident.
February 8, 2024 7:35 am

I’ve been in 770 for many years now, and i’ve come to realize that on Shabbos afternoon after mincha, there is a massive Seder Niggunim followed by Chazoras Dach – which by the way has been going on since before Gimmel Tammuz.
If you haven’t realized it yet, then it just shows that R’ Avtzon has been correct and that YOU have not been in 770…

Literally!
Reply to  In reply to "Resident."
February 8, 2024 9:05 pm

This is probably one of the most underappreciated things that happens on a weekly basis

Open minded and understanding
February 7, 2024 11:37 am

This article surprised me in the direction it went. It could have been blaming and condescending, which often happens.
However, it went down the path of open mindedness and understanding. Thank you for that.
A question which needs to be addressed:
Are there perhaps more reasons why people are avoiding 770?

Gabboim elections
February 7, 2024 11:37 am

When will the next election be for gabboim in 770? Each candidate should state how he plans on brining order to the shul and making it comfortable for everyone to attend. Actually practical methods and rules that will be enforced. And serious consequences for those who break them.. Not just jokes. In any institute in the world.. if there are rules and people attend your institute and publicly disrespect authority and break the rules, they are barred from entry and disturbing . There are many big beautiful shuls locally and worldwide which run in an ordered way. Why should the… Read more »

Drop the Gabboim thing! It’s a farce!
Reply to  Gabboim elections
February 7, 2024 11:59 am

The Rebbe never wanted the Gabboim to have the control of 770! Aguch is the ones the Rebbe entrusted to have the control! Maybe we tell the Gabboim to go home and stop wasting thousands of dollars on legal fees, and have Aguch step in and clean up this mess that has been going on for 30 years. And frankly the author of this article isn’t so innocent of harboring those animals in 770, just take a look at this post: https://collive.com/is-it-time-to-talk-about-expanding-770/ I don’t think much more needs to be said. It’s time the crown heights community stands up and… Read more »

old school
February 7, 2024 11:46 am

I do have to say that when i read the headline i thought finally someone will talk the truth and scold this insane concept of ” class shuls ” and how they need to be done and away with, but i guess i was wrong. there is a certain concept of a child growing up among elders and among people who have more experience and knowledge. davening with older chassidim , fabrengeing with older chassidim, not like we have now , big bullshov sessions and starting davening at 11 and ” chilling ” with friends in shul. shortly after my… Read more »

“Old school”
Reply to  old school
February 7, 2024 12:07 pm

If you identify as old school, stick to the traditions, but don’t try to dictate to us “new schoolers” how to live.

Huge generalization
Reply to  old school
February 8, 2024 5:47 pm

So not factual. Not all class Shul’s are like this fellow wants to suggest. Anshei Lubavitch and Nosson’s Shul are 2 examples of class Shul’s that evolved into community centers. These Shuls have Shiurim, Weekday Minyanim. These Shul’s start at 10:00 every Shabbos. They host plenty of Farbrengens and gatherings for men, woman, and children individually.

770 is the rebbes shul
February 7, 2024 11:49 am

we should not forget that 770 is the rebbes shul.

Great idea but...
February 7, 2024 11:55 am

This would need to be coordinated with someone at 770.
Is there anyone to talk to?
Maybe the gabboim can help arrange a exclusive time for a Rebbe video or maariv elusive to class shuls?
similar to how they make rally’s for kids.

Not understating
Reply to  Great idea but...
February 7, 2024 12:26 pm

Why can’t the shul just daven a maariv in 770 ? what do you need gabbaim for?

Wake up crown heights!
February 7, 2024 12:10 pm

Wake up people! Remember what happened 3 weeks ago? They broke through the wall! Destroying part of the Rebbe’s shul! And causing the greatest Chilul Hashem! The Gabboim have done NOTHING to prevent this from happening! In fact they themselves saw the Bochurim which they “prohibited” from entering the shul, inside the shul, and did nothing to remove them. We aren’t dealing with a normal situation, we are dealing with a problem that is 30 years old! And for some reason the Gabboim as well as the Rabbonim cannot get their act together. What a Shame! Time to go home!… Read more »

Learn from the older generation
February 7, 2024 12:13 pm

By having a class shul u deprive u & ur children from learning from the older generation of chassidem & passing on the torch of knowledge & Gefill !

Happy birthday
February 7, 2024 12:19 pm

Happy birthday rabbi

Feelings aside (or maybe deeper feelings instead):
Reply to  Happy birthday
February 8, 2024 12:54 am

This should be the top voted comment

Out of town
February 7, 2024 12:44 pm

Since I moved away from CH a number of years ago however when I return to CH I have no desire to go 770. The community have allowed a total disaster to a shul we once knew. You shall write a letter to the people in charge and supporters of the gang who bullied there way to take over 770. Not to the normal peaceful Yung community who want a normal shaboss davaning and farbrengan

Expand 770!!!!!!!!!!!
February 7, 2024 12:58 pm

Lets go guys, lets expand so we can all Davven there together!

The hergestalgia-article !
February 7, 2024 1:10 pm

To the Author, About going to 770, There’s a reason why people avoid it. Fix the problem, and people will come. The behavior of the Tzfatiban, beating the lives of erliche yungerlite, and doing as they please, thus taking away the level of security, and community a shul should offer. Look at the shuls and shtiblach in other Kehilos. They are stunning, well kept, and well run, as a shul ought to be, no nonsense. I wish I could say that about 770. As for going once a month, maybe fly-in your yeshiva 1 a month, and have us in… Read more »

what are you talking about?
Reply to  The hergestalgia-article !
February 7, 2024 1:31 pm

All he is saying that someone in Crown Heights should daven in 770 at least once a month…what could be wrong with that?

Missing the point
Reply to  what are you talking about?
February 7, 2024 1:54 pm

This person is suggesting that people avoid 770 at all because of the Marzav. He’s sorta right !

30 years
February 7, 2024 1:11 pm

I grew up in Crown Heights in the early 70s. Haven’t set foot in 770 in nearly 30 years even though I visit CH frequently. Too painful for many reasons. I would rather remember it the way it was. My class and friends will tell you the same.

This is sad
Reply to  30 years
February 8, 2024 12:56 am

Sad and painful to hear, on many levels

What about the ladies
February 7, 2024 1:29 pm

Now we need a Shul besides 770 that accommodates us similarly. Even if we’re not married.

Happy Birthday
February 7, 2024 1:33 pm

May you be zoche to a year with overflowing brachos!!

YL

Class shuls to expand in existing shuls
February 7, 2024 2:00 pm

There are a few older Shuls in Crown Heights that have a low attendance.
A win win situation would be for class shuls to expand into those Shul buildings.

There’s a beautiful Shul building on NY Ave between Empire & Montgomery right by the start of Malbone St.

Some of the hospitals in south Crown Heights have Shuls in them.

And a few more Shuls.

With class shuls expanding into existing Shuls that have a low attendance, this can be not just for Shabbos but also to make daily minyonim during the week.

Good idea. but,
Reply to  Class shuls to expand in existing shuls
February 8, 2024 5:51 pm

The Shul you refer to here would have no interest in accommodating a new crowd. the fellow who runs it wats tp keep to the original Minhagim of the Shul’s heyday, which was not Chabad.

my issue with class shuls
February 7, 2024 2:13 pm

One thing that bothers me about class shuls and it has for a very long time. Even though my husband goes to a class shul (one of the first). There are no elders. Also there are no grown children. So lets picture simchas torah, who is dancing…the mother is watching her husband dance with any young children you have. The older children are in their class shuls. I want my family together. I also am very happy this shul has one main Rabbi who is older. But in general I think a wide array of ages, is something that helps… Read more »

Sosonowitz shul on crown street.
February 7, 2024 3:14 pm

This is shul still exists and is struggling to get a minyan
for shabbos. Gershon avtzon father who was a steadfast member who used to help the Minyan greatly. Sosnowitz shteeble still needs your help!!
The rebbes directive still stands today and we need young people instead of going class shuls and getting drunk, go help these small shuls have a minyan!!

Location?
Reply to  Sosonowitz shul on crown street.
February 7, 2024 6:49 pm

Where is this Shul?
Crown Street and what?

Sosnowiec shull adress
Reply to  Location?
February 8, 2024 9:49 am

534 Crown Street, between Albany & Kingston

Beis Hamikdash
February 7, 2024 4:09 pm

There is the famous story of the person who after many years finally went to Beis Hamikdash and was shocked at what he saw. Animals, blood – phew, THIS is the holy Beis Hamidash everyone is talking about?

Same with 770!
The more Kedusha the more stumbling blocks.
Focus on the positive.
There is plenty!

Beis Hamikdash “M’aat”. Bizui Beis hakneses.
Reply to  Beis Hamikdash
February 8, 2024 12:27 am

A shul is to be kept clean, and orderly, period.

Do not make a fool of yourself with your “positive outlook”.
We have an issue, and we need to fix it !

And a rule of thumb: “treat 770 with the same respect you’d except someone to have for your home. And even more so.

770 where the Rebbe lives!!!!
February 7, 2024 5:59 pm

770 guys is the place to be the place is always rocking!! 770 is a place to take chayus from because the Rebbe is there bgashmius even now after gimmel Tammuz! Nothing has changed, just to our physical eyes that don’t see. But hey we need emuna, and simcha and bitachon and hey,where good to go! From 770 where marching out! This song was ingraved in my head in gan yisroel parksville, yes indeed from 770 where marching out to victory without a doubt! Yes 770 is the place to be, and yes the Rebbe edited the sicha of beis… Read more »

Question
February 7, 2024 6:15 pm

“it is also difficult for a father to daven with a bunch of sons in 770; more importantly: It gives a young man – and woman – a sense of belonging and community“

Woman? What are you taking about?

Disagree
February 7, 2024 6:26 pm

Class Shuls are the best thing that happened to Crown Heights. We need smaller communities in the big community. It’s a support system, we celebrate others simchas together, farbrengans and everlasting friendships. Many Chassidus and nigleh classes are organized. For some members, if they didn’t have a class shul, they wouldn’t go to any shul.

Elephant
February 8, 2024 1:44 am

Happy birthday, Gershon. To answer your headline, no, it’s not time to talk about the importance of stepping into 770 today. First address the proverbial elephant in there. And no, I don’t refer specifically to shvils, bullying, hooliganism, vandalism or lack of space. I refer to referring to 770 as the Rebbe’s shul. What’s the point of going there today? Shul is to daven and perhaps learn. If one can accomplish a better quality of that in a smaller space with folks curated to my comfort, that’s where I daven and learn and farbreng. Yeh yeh, kdusha lo zaza mimkoma.… Read more »

First of all
Reply to  Elephant
February 8, 2024 9:11 pm

First of all, he wrote an article already that addresses your point

Second, learn Kuntres Rabeinu ShebiBavel

And third, lubavitch lebt, with or without you. You have the opportunity to enhance your life/service of your creator, by being part of it

Expand 770
February 8, 2024 1:56 am

During the week there is enough room usually, and many people that daven in class shuls daven on 770 during the week. In Shabbos however there isn’t enough room for all the people who daven in class shuls. 770 needs to be expanded. Also going to shul with kids is easier in class shuls than 770.
There is a maaleh of class shuls and 770. The best is to go to both

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