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Wednesday, 26 Adar I, 5784
  |  March 6, 2024

Don’t Be A “Chossid Shoite”

Response from Dayan Rabbi Sholom Shuchat on when Halacha mandates pregnant women should use an ultrasound checkup. Full Story

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WILL IT MAKE A DIFFERENCE?
February 12, 2014 7:51 am

When I asked the Rebbe if I should have an ultras sound, the answer I received and have used since was “im anafke mine” will it make a difference? In other words, will it matter in the long run if I have the sonogram

The title says it all
February 12, 2014 12:33 am

Even though the title of the article says it all, and Rabbi Shuchat researched and knows what he is talking about, there are so many comments by ignorant arm chair experts saying things like, ‘i heard from a friend of a friend, and it must be this way’. #74 is absolutely correct.

Response
February 9, 2014 6:40 pm

Sorry to say to all those who listen to their doctors without doing research, you are the dangerous ones in the community. The last generation doctors have been giving out antibiotics like water and now theres the super germ that does not respond to medication. We are all in danger of it whether we took antibiotics or not. Next, vaccinations ruin your immune system, your body cannot cure itself any longer, it must rely on medication. Autism has nothing to do with hugs. I’m an early childhood educator, i have seen a rise in autism, ADD, ADHD and it has… Read more »

this was one of the exeptions where the Rebbe did not rely on doctors (then) opinion
February 9, 2014 4:04 pm

Even though in general the Rebbe instructed to consult two doctors, on this however the Rebbe did specifically differ with the convetional wisdom at the time

Only if a doctor saw a clear indication of a possible life threatening problem, then and only then should sonogram be used if no other tool is able to investigate…

Do you wear contact lenses?
February 9, 2014 2:48 am

I heard the Rebbe was against that too. So long as you don’t do an ultrasound… To those who are so critical of Rabbi Shuchat’s opinion: 1) It is hard to take you seriously when it appears you haven’t even read what he wrote carefully. He is a Rav, and apparently is familiar with current medical opinion. Yet you, who have neither qualification, are better able to understand what the Rebbe meant about ultrasound. 2) It is hard to take you seriously when you can’t spell. Sorry. You may even be making an intelligent remark, but the misspellings and lack… Read more »

To #71
February 9, 2014 1:57 am

Not always. Some people get vaccinated but it does not work. Others get vaccinated and it works only partially. Therefore if everyone gets vaccinated there is enough communal immunity to protect everyone (most people) who are only immune 80 or 90%. But if enough people do not get vaccinated they put everyone, even the responsible people, at risk. Oh and what about daycares where the kids are under a certain age and haven’t been vaccianted yet? Basically stupid people are dangerous. Just pray they don’t hurt you. The Rebbe said go to doctors, was he also a worshipper of the… Read more »

To #68
February 9, 2014 1:51 am

I hope you never open Igrot, because that is the Rebbe’s answer to someone else, how can you take it for yourself???

There are things that are horaot klalliot and things that are horaot pratiyot.

ultra sound
February 8, 2014 11:51 pm

why are you always saying non vaccinate people put others at risk if you are vaccinated you should be protected, so obviously you do not have faith in your own medical RELIGON. next, yes we do not have polio but we have cancer, autism, M.S. doen syndrome adhd addd and so much more..Yes Hashem runs the world not the medical religon and those who worship it, You should be HEALTHY..daven eat right and exercise stop worshipping your doctors listen to your REBBE!

The Abnormaility which justifies a sonogram is OBVIOUSLY NOT an abnormality discovered via sonogram!!
February 8, 2014 10:40 pm

so if there is no symptom for concern without sonogram, then the Rebbe is against doing a sonogram -to look for possible problems-. re those who pretend to know the nature and limitations of the Rebbe’s position against sonogram, you cannot say that the Rebbe’s view doesnt apply today, simply because: A. The Rebbe was fully capable of putting a qualifier on his position -if he thought there would ever be a shift in the relevance of his objections. B. Only in the last three years, are researchers beginning (ONLY BEGINNING) to recognize the potential harm sonograms may be causing… Read more »

Only if Medical danger is alraedy suspected due to ABNORMAL symptoms (obviously symptoms visible without the use of sonogram)
February 8, 2014 10:31 pm

If there are unusual -abnormal- symptoms or signs observed in a normal pregnancy, and these symptoms can possibly be indicative of a life threatening condition RL, THEN (and only then) is a sonogram justified by the Rebbe! however, if there is no specific indication or symptom of something wrong, in such a case, the Rebbe was against sonograms! yes, even if sonograms itself would be able to expose new problems not yet causing any symptoms. it is true that certain medical procedures can reveal problems we would otherwise not know about till later, yet, we do not use that logic… Read more »

An answer you get from the rebbe
February 8, 2014 8:54 pm

Is directed at you only, and is not an answer for any one else.
Each case is individual.

#65 - Really?
February 8, 2014 1:54 pm

In those days ultrasounds were cool tools to find out the baby’s gender and not much more. This, obviously, is a stupid reason to do an ultrasound.

But to do a routine dating/ find out how many ultrasound and then an anatomy scan?

I wish the Rebbe were here, he would explain EXACTLY what he meant and all you tipshim would finally get it.

To 59
February 7, 2014 2:38 pm

Why are you in shock? If the Rebbe is a real tzadik and a real mouth piece for Hashem, and a real ohev yisroel, then its no shock that he is far ahead of scientific discoveries, only starting to be discovered slowly in the last three years

On this issue the Rebbe's position differed with those doctors promoting "exploratory" sonogram
February 7, 2014 2:34 pm

Only sonograms (further) investigating a specific abnormality (discovered without the use of sonogram) is a valid reason to use sonogram!
And even then, only if sonogram is the only option available to save the life

The words of a tzaddick & novi do not have an "experation date"!
February 7, 2014 9:39 am

Would there be a fool to come along and say that with all the technology and food processing systems available today – all the illnesses associated with pork are no longer relevant.

Does that mean that it’s no longer traif?

Of course not – it’s traif because the Torah does not have an expiration date – the Rebbe said NO it means NO.

to 51
February 7, 2014 7:54 am

how can you say that hashem will orchestrate them to live, many people who “:don’t do ultrasounds”, have had dead babies, or the mother died giving birth. so you are saying that the people who DID survive thanks to ultrasounds, were not meant to live???

To #51
February 7, 2014 3:14 am

And what if Hashem wants us to use the advanced medical technology in order to save the baby’s life or improve the quality of it? Yes it is a nisayon to have them operate on your baby in utero, but possibly that is the only nisayon Hashem wanted you to have, He did not want you to have to raise a disabled child and therefore gave you this nisayon in a day and age where it could be fixed. So yes He decides which babies will be born healthy but He also wants you to do your hishtadlus; it could… Read more »

To #49
February 7, 2014 3:09 am

Only in the third story is there an obvious reason to do an ultrasound. The others were discovered by “routine” ultrasounds.

to #27
February 7, 2014 2:26 am

What a foolish comment. We didn’t wait 5 years to see if polio vaccine was safe. There was dancing in the street and lines for vaccine. Ignorant people would go back to when the average life span was 35!

wow, i casually asked three mothers i know with children "on the spectrum"
February 7, 2014 1:28 am

ironically, in each case, these children had more ultrasound exposure than their “non-spectrum” siblings!!!

its really freaky!!

Science does not yet know alll the adverse effects sonogram waves have on children’s brains!!

i wounder how many children in the system have had learning and behavioral challenges triggered or worsened due to Non essential Sonogram exposure in utero!!

Unless and except when there is EVIDENCE of complication!! the Rebbe is against Ultrasound!
February 7, 2014 1:14 am

since a competent medical practitioner can verify a healthy fetal heartbeat without an ultrasound, Ultrasound MUST be avoided! except when there is EVIDENCE of complication.

To 46
February 7, 2014 1:10 am

Your reasoning is totally flawed and a misrepresentation of the Rebbe. The Rebbe allowed numerous women to have ultrasounds even when the suspected reason for the ultrasound was minimal. In my wifes case the doctor was not sure whether my wife was having twins and the Rebbe said have the sonogram. According to your interpretation the Rebbe put my child at significant risk for what ? Just to know if there were twins? Why not wait and see? You are simply ignoring all the evidence in order to pout your fanatical view.

To the brilliant author of Post #46
February 7, 2014 1:08 am

Please email me your contact info @ [email protected]
Thank you very much!

All the Chachomim now what the Rebbe meant
February 7, 2014 1:06 am

how about posting the ksav yad or the “muga” sicha where the Rebbe said/wrote not to do sonogram

To 34
February 7, 2014 1:04 am

You misrepresent the Rebbe and your advice is dangerous. The Rebbe’s overarching horo was to listen to the doctor together with a Rov. You appear to be neither so you should refrain from spouting your nonsense.

listening to the rebbe
February 7, 2014 12:52 am

Most of you are missing the point here. The debate is not about whether or not one should listen to the rebbe or not. Obviously, we should always listen to the rebbe. However, the issue here is what is the rebbes opinion in this matter. And anyone with a half a brain in his head who has read the Rebbes letters on this issue will clearly conclude, that the rebbe is not arguing with the medical community at all. The rebbe is merely stating that one should not use ultrasound as an option for cosmetic or similar purposes. Many people… Read more »

High Risk Pregnency
February 6, 2014 11:28 pm

May I add that for High Risk women who require more than those “two important ones”, it is also necessary for them to do them? I have to do them bi-weekly from second semester on, and I was told to do it due to the circumstances…

Hashem runs this world!!!
February 6, 2014 11:27 pm

Yidden- wake up! Hashem is the one who decides who has children, who has healthy children etc. How can one say that if they “would have” done a sonogram their baby would have been saved? Or that they would have healed a problem? (Not that I don’t feel your pain, but we just must realize it’s all from Hashem.) Of course Hashem tells us to work through teva and to do all we can (venishmartem meod lenafshosechem) to try to have healthy babies. But after the fact, we don’t say “it could have been different”. Yes, if there is a… Read more »

Hepitites in pregnancy ....the Rebbe´s answer
February 6, 2014 10:24 pm

I was 6 weeks pregnant when I was diagnosed with a severe case of hepitites, the doctor insisted on a sonagram, the Rebbe answered, keatzas rofe yedid (we should do according to a doctor who is a friend) My doctor had met the Rebbe and knew of his greatness, so he asked for a specific urine test over 24 hours and I never did a sonagram. BH the baby was born perfectly healthy (I did cure with the help also of live birds and a stict health food diet for the first year) A familly memeber pregnant at the same… Read more »

to 45
February 6, 2014 9:11 pm

Your stories are great, however most were indicated by another symptom which then the rebbe did approve of an ultrasound

Yehuda Silverstein
February 6, 2014 8:51 pm

#34 you are a lunatic, the Rebbe zy”a told my wife directly to follow the advice of two doctors or one specialist and whatever is direct there will be his brocho.
We are not a cult!!

to all commenters
February 6, 2014 8:33 pm

if youre writing a response to a comment plz dnt just write to #4. can you at least write what they wrote so we dont have to scroll up and down every comment thanx

Attn Rabbi Shuchat
February 6, 2014 7:39 pm

Sholoim uVrochoh. With regard to the disappointing review above on the issue of pregnancy ultrasounds: It is not for you, Rabbi Shuchat, to take the liberty to classify the Rebbe’s advice and reasoning with regard to ultrasounds, especially insofar as to suggest that the Rebbe’s advice no longer applies!! As you did fraudulently claim: “there is no reason to be wary of these [routine] checks” Note: You are no medical professional. Take better care before making such uninformed pronouncements, even if you have been told this by medical practitioners, you don’t know this. You limited the Rebbe’s ‘possible’ reasoning to… Read more »

#34 That is not a good summary,
February 6, 2014 1:52 pm

and it is obvious what your own opinion is. What we are saying is not that the Rebbe’s advice is outdated but that the Rebbe himself said not to do ultrasounds just for fun. The Rebbe DID say to consult doctors and to do necessary medical procedures. Doing an ultrasound just to find out the baby’s gender is against what the Rebbe said. Doing an ultrasound that could possibly save the baby’s life is not. Doing a “routine” ultrasound to date the pregnancy, check how many embryos are there, and check that the pregnancy is where it should be is… Read more »

placenta previa
February 6, 2014 1:17 pm

I know of a few women who’s babies died or almost and they almost died too, because of placenta previa. a simple problem that if discovered before, they would have a planned c-section. But if not discovered on an ultrasound, NO ONE could be aware of the condition until enxpected labour occurs (most times labor come early with this condition) and the mother is hemorrhaging. And no, just believing it won’t happen to you, does not make this so. There is a REAL medical need to have atleast ONE ultrasound (the 20 week one). and for the problem of placenta… Read more »

US Health Care- gold standard???
February 6, 2014 12:32 pm

Nothing about the US health care system can be considered “gold standard.” We may be the most progressive but a look at our health care compared to other countries indicates that progressive is not always healthiest.

Questions for the author:
February 6, 2014 12:13 pm

B”H “when long-term medical studies have proven time and time again that ultrasound does not cause any damage to fetus,” With all due respect to R’ Shuchat: 1. As a Dayan u surely know that “lo ra’inu aino raya”. just b/c they haven’t found proof that the technology is dangerous, is not PROOF that it ISN’T dangerous. They simply haven’t found a connection…(yet). That is a principle in Halacha, as well as basic logic. 2. There are doctors who are still wary of sonograms. for u to give a blanket statement representing the medical community is rather irresponsible. As a… Read more »

Wow!!
February 6, 2014 11:29 am

Whatever you think, whatever your opinion, watch how you speak. A little derech eretz will go along way. Yes even if …..

Bemichilas kevod col...
February 6, 2014 11:28 am

I think what #28 writes should have been what is posted:

“I personally got an answer from the Rebbe 26 years ago to not do routine sonograms but to do it only when the doctor wants it for a specific medical reason. I was pregnant with complications”

i.e. the key term is “specific medical reason.”

Tried and Proven
February 6, 2014 11:26 am

We did the 20 week ultrasound and discovered an abnormality on the fetus that had to then be monitored every week, and could have caused serious complications at birth. BH birth went well, bud we still knew that we had to operate on the baby due to those ultrasounds. Definitely necessary, this is living proof.

To The Anti-Vaccine crowd..
February 6, 2014 11:13 am

You cause risk to the community. You put our children in danger. It is embarassing to see every few years lo aleinu that public health concerns over incidence of preventable infections specifically in the frum communities of New York. It is a chililul hashem and makes us look like we are living in the third world..

Been there manytimes
February 6, 2014 10:33 am

The Rebbe always said to have a RAV. Usually when you ask a question to a Rav, they will look at all the things that the Rebbe said about your question, speak to you about your specific situation and if necessary also speak to the doctor. They will then answer you based on all the information.

Agree with #18
February 6, 2014 9:49 am

Rabbi Shuchat you seem to know better than The Rebbe. You failed to bring in to account the importance of Menucha for the mother. Before this technology came out Bh we had many healthy children born – my wife did use the ultrasound technology due to her situation. The stress in these articles should not be the Sevorah – logic rather people need to know and understand that COLlive.com is NOT the place for such decisions!!! If you have a Shaalo in Halocha you go to your Rov and he will advise how to proceed – The Rebbe stressed how… Read more »

Honoring H'
February 6, 2014 9:40 am

Yidn, please daven more. Teshuva matzila mimavet. Kal vahomer from all complications etc. Good deeds before your visit to the doctor will help your doctor to be smart and merciful enough not to offer you the procedures you don’t need.

Good summary of "Both sides" of this debate
February 6, 2014 9:36 am

THOSE WHO SAY THE REBBE’S GUIDELINE NO LONGER TO BE FOLLOWED: 1. “The Rebbe’s position (to avoid ultrasound when no danger) is not a “Chok” Not a religious directive, It’s just his “medical advice”. Is out of date and not applicable nowadays. 2. “Since technology improves, Ultrasound is now safe” 3. Instead of blanketly trusting the Rebbe’s “Medical advice”, (Avoid Sonograms unless danger is suspected) If a Rov or Doctor feels that its ok to do sonogram –even when no particular danger is suspected- then it’s prudent to trust them instead of the Rebbe’s (outdated) medical advice. (response from) THOSE… Read more »

Doctors (and others) should not be trusted ABOVE THE REBBE!
February 6, 2014 9:30 am

EVEN IF YOU FIND ME 1000 doctors and Rabbis who think its OK to do sonograms -even when no specific abnormality was detected-
I SAY DONT LISTEN TO ANY DOCTORS RABBIS OR PUNDITS WHO DISAGREE WITH THE REBBE”S CLEAR GUIDELINE.

Something is missing here.
February 6, 2014 9:26 am

Everybody here is relating to the Rebbe’s view on Ultra Sound as if it based completely on the Rebbe’s understanding or approach to Ultra Sound as a technology and its efficacy etc. As chassidim there is a lot deeper and more important element and that is the Libi Oimer Li. I beleive that it was that element of Libi Oimer Li and kivoin shenofak mpumei d’Rebbi that should come into play in any decision. Of course, if a Doctor says it is necessary then one should do it without any hesitation but as a routine or prophylactic measure then the… Read more »

google it yourself!! "Scientists are uncovering disturbing evidence that those sneak peeks at baby could damage a developing brain"
February 6, 2014 9:22 am

Do we (chasidim) really need to wait for science to CATCH UP to the Rebbe? in order for us to have מנוחת הנפש in the following the Rebbe’s guideline??!

the evidence is slowly but surely mounting in the direction of the Rebbe’s “outdated” guideline!

Rabbosai! if you have “Emunas Tzadikim issues” please dont wrap it up in fancy disguises… such as this well written “response-oped”

just google this quote!
“Scientists are uncovering disturbing evidence that those sneak peeks at baby could damage a developing brain.”

to sruly clapman #15
February 6, 2014 9:20 am

It’s not that simple, especially when the baker it interested to oversell you his product. And it’s known as how health care providers are baking their challos.

To #15
February 6, 2014 8:54 am

Sruli,

I think Rabbi Shuchat has made that point fairly clear, that doctors should be the ones making decisions, and that the Halacha says that…

Mom
February 6, 2014 8:48 am

I personally got an answer from the Rebbe 26 years ago to not do routine sonograms but to do it only when the doctor wants it for a specific medical reason. I was pregnant with complications

not all vaccines have been out 5 years..
February 6, 2014 8:42 am

how can you compare a polio vaccine that’s been out for 40 years with a (teen) menengitis or an hpv vaccine that has only been around for a few years?

the word vaccine has a very wide range of benefits, risks, and side effects.
The 20+ years should be mandatory for all..
The newer (under 5-10 years) — who knows?
But, how can you enforce them all the same – they are completely different injections with completely different preservatives.
All drugs are different, all anti-biotics are different, and oxycodone, marijuana, cocaine, and heroine are all different.

To #18
February 6, 2014 8:32 am

If you are after a miscarriage repeated ultrasounds can be extremely helpful and comforting.

Didn't have a scan....
February 6, 2014 8:22 am

And gave birth to a very sick baby which resulted in numerous surgeries with no insurance ( we were abroad and didn’t have coverage) . Thank G-d baby survived but we will be paying out for the rest of our lives.

not that simple
February 6, 2014 6:43 am

The Rebbe advised many times to go against what doctors recommend. Especially medical procedures. There are stories galore about just this.

To #4
February 6, 2014 6:37 am

Just please warn everyone who comes in contact with your kids that they have not been vaccinated against Rubella so that you don’t kill or severely deform an innocent woman’s fetus.

to #9
February 6, 2014 6:09 am

it is not 0%. I know an ultrasound technician who told me it makes a lot of sense to be wary as we don’t know all the effects.

Thank you.
February 6, 2014 4:26 am

Finally!

Yasher Koach
February 6, 2014 3:24 am

Thank you for clarifying this.
Every pregnancy and every pregnant woman is a different story that needs to be seen individually. It is very dangerous to generalise decisions oe the Rebbe’s horao’s.
There are many children healthy and alive today thanks to ultrasound technology BH!

Mother
February 6, 2014 2:14 am

I’m so happy for this response article because there are still many people out there encouraging future mothers not have have this life-saving exam for the unborn child. Thank G-d my children are fine, but had there been a problem Cv”shalom which could have been resolved by prevention, I don’t know if I could have forgiven myself for listening to the nonsense

THERE IS ANOTHER COMPONENT HERE
February 6, 2014 1:34 am

מנוחת הנפש של האמא שהוא עיקר גדול
THIS THE REBBE STERESSED MANY TIMES.
AND THESE TESTS DON’T AD IN HER BEING CALM..

"Routine" shouldn't be a bad word
February 6, 2014 1:11 am

With all do respect to Rabbi Shuchat – he is not a clinician and should not be giving opinions to things out of his scope of knowledge. Routine is not a bad word – routine means preventative care. The current focus on medicine is not to deal with problems when they arise rather to prevent them. Just like a child receives regular check ups starting from birth a woman who is pregnant needs “routine” checkups which could include Ultra Sounds if the OBYN feels it is necessary. Why wait to deal with an issue in the 5th month if it… Read more »

5th cheilek
February 6, 2014 1:04 am

The famous 5th. Cheilek in shulchan aruch : comun sense

Sruly Clapman.
February 6, 2014 1:04 am

Lets stop the nonsense!!!

These articles are dangerous!

Everyone should consult their doctors and do as many ultrasounds as HE FEELS NECESARY, don’t mess around.

Let the baker make bread, the accountant run the numbers, and competent physicians call the shots.

Thank you
February 6, 2014 12:43 am

That’s the answer my Rav gave when I asked this question.

too conclusive
February 6, 2014 12:21 am

Like #7 said I don’t think you understand fully the Rebbes advice. I would agree if todays medicine dictates something to be done unless its against halacha

to #4
February 6, 2014 12:17 am

Guess you don’t remember the polio epedemic of the 50’s. We were not allowed in public places. Kids were dying or paralized and some still suffering. There are world outbreaks cause not everyone can get inoculized.Our Rebbe recommended doing what the majority does and b” h most do.

yasher koach
February 6, 2014 12:15 am

thanks for talking sense and making sense of the rebbe.s view on ultrasounds.
32 years ago the rebbe told me “maye nafkimineh” . bh with advancement in medicine yes there could be anafkemineh

# 3, #4
February 5, 2014 11:55 pm

Did you even read the blurb? “Dayan Rabbi Sholom Shuchat.” #4: Your comment really shouldn’t even warrant a response, but I’ll do it anyway. Vaccines are not only one of the oldest currently used medical practices in existence, but they’re one of the most widely studied medical topics, and there are literally hundreds–if not thousands–of long-term studies. Do me a favor. Go to Google Scholar, type “longitudinal vaccine studies” in the search bar and start reading. There are no serious concerns in vaccinating healthy children and any parent who doesn’t vaccinate their kids is not only putting their child at… Read more »

common sense
February 5, 2014 11:39 pm

Listening to the Rebbe does not preclude using common sense. My nephew was born with severe heart defects. Thankfully this was detected in ultra sound and the medical team was ready the moment he was born.

One ultra sound at 5 months is smart. Having an ultra sound at every visit is most likely the intent in the Rebbe’s words.

When heart transplants were first being done, R’ Moshe forbade it because of the risk. Once the risk was less than 50% they are allowed. The risk of ultra sound is 0%. Why wouldn’t you do it?

#3.
February 5, 2014 11:23 pm

He is

sources?
February 5, 2014 11:11 pm

why won’t you cite the sources where the Rebbe states this general approach to newly developed or non-essential testing or procedures?

non-essential medical procedures also include induction
February 5, 2014 11:07 pm

when not medically necessary but more because the mother is ‘fed up’. There are lots of women who have these done routinely as well. The Rebbe was very opposed to that as well, but it is not as well-known as the ultrasound issue.

Thank you!
February 5, 2014 11:04 pm

Thank you for the clarification and the good sense. I hope women take heed and not twist the Rebbe’s words into mishugas.

please explain
February 5, 2014 11:01 pm

“the Rebbe was wary of new medical procedures when the long-term results have not been studied, and recommended avoiding them”

vaccines have yet to be studied long term…

sorry, this is worse than original article
February 5, 2014 11:00 pm

you make it sound like your a ‘rav’ and okaying it all.

Finally
February 5, 2014 10:48 pm

A rov with his head screwed on straight!

finally
February 5, 2014 10:43 pm

Thank you for clarifying

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