By Sruli Schochet – Los Angeles
I was once teaching a yahadus class to a group “modern Orthodox” girls. They were complaining about what they perceived was a double standard by some religious girls they knew in other Chabad schools.
“Sure, they have their tznius uniforms”, they said. “But we know for a fact that when the adults are not around, they do this and that. With us, what you see is what you get!”
The Torah puts such an emphasis on someone being ‘tochoi k’boroi’ – their internal feelings and external appearances should be consistent. As hashgacha protis would have it, a clarifying example came to mind.
It is true, I said, that sometimes we find what appears to be a juicy and delicious orange. Yet, when we peel away the skin, we find that it is all moldy on the inside. However, you will not find an orange with a moldy peel, that once the skin is peeled away, there is a nice juicy fruit inside waiting to be eaten. Usually, once the peel is moldy, that is a clear indication that the entire fruit is rotten through and through.
One of the main character attributes that make up our Jewish DNA is the element of shame. Not that we need to walking around with our head down and embarrassed all the time. On the contrary, we need to walk with confidence, with a sense of pride to be Jewish.
What it does mean, is that we as Jews have a natural refinement within us. For a Jew to do something unrefined, should naturally cause an element of shame. There is no doubt that people who dress in the most tznius fashion could also be doing all kinds of inappropriate things in secret.
But the fact that they do said things in secret, is a level unto itself. They still have that element of shame. They lack the brazenness to declare to their world through their actions or appearance that they don’t care what anyone thinks, let alone G-d. That shame is what leaves the door open for their return onto the right path. To be completely devoid of shame, would only serve to show that they are potentially rotten through and through. Coming back from that spiritual chasm is exponentially harder.
Are they many things that need fixing in the Crown Heights community? There are many things that need fixing in every community! But you only get one chance to make a first impression. The way we dress, especially if it is consistently prevalent throughout the community, is a reflection of the whole community.
If we are willing to brazenly walk around, or even just act indifferent, to our external ‘moldy peel’, that can G-d forbid be a reflection of a deeper level of dissonance to Halacha as a whole and chassidus in particular. We have a concept of ‘metoch shelo lishma, bo lishmah’. We may not feel or care to dress or act with refinement. But by doing so, whether we like it or not, and acting as an example for our children, our neighbor and our friends, how can that not help sow the seeds towards a more uplifted spiritual community?
Improving oneself internally is difficult. It requires serious honesty and introspection. Changing our outward appearance is easier. It is a simple step we can take in recapturing our natural refinement, which in turn will be a step in the direction of improving our inner core.
This should not be taken in any way shape of form as a criticism of anyone, Heaven forbid! The laundry list of self-improvements that myself and my family need to make is quite extensive. However, even though I do not know him, I applaud Rabbi Motty Gurary of Bnos Menachem school in Crown Heights for taking a step in the right direction.
To the author of the op-ed “More Shocking Than Leggings,” let us not be guilty of not seeing the forest because of the trees. You don’t like the ‘style’ in which the letter was written? Focus on the message and build from that.
To jump up and criticize is easy. However, take a hard look at yourself in the mirror and ask yourself: Did his letter offend me because he is wrong, or did his letter offend me because he is right?
RELATED ARTICLES:
+ More Shocking Than Leggings
+ Try the ‘Shlichus’ Method to Tznius
+ Reasons Why I Love Being Tznius
The writer of this article forgets that Tznuit is a community mitzvah and people are entitled to hold by the standards of their communities. Those “Modern Orthodox” (translate Torah Jews) were not acting brazen at all. They were holding by the way that their community defines modesty. A reminder, if you will, that many Separdim wear sandals. It’s the length of the skirt, not the socks that determine what is Tznuit. So the author’s statement about the Chabad girls and how they still have shame because they are not immodest in public, while the Modern Orthodox are brazen and shameless… Read more »
why don’t we just all wear black and black then we could be as tznius as possible and whoever doesn’t follow to these rules then are put in cherem. I think it’s a great solution it worked for levi tahor.
Love the attitude! Keep it up and I hope you’re ideas bear fruit! I would totally attend a class and support new Tznius fashion events.
As a parent in bnos menachem I am very sad at the direction the school is taking. I have a strong value for tznius but this manipulation and control doesn’t feel like Torah to me. Think of a parent who signed up their children 10 or 12 years ago due to the warm and chassidish reputation the school had. They were never informed of these extreme standards and their children go on to form not e friendships and relationships with teachers, principals… overall you are happy your children are growing bederech Hashem – they are happy and well adjusted. Suddenly… Read more »
Thank you number 124 for the מעשה from our Holy Rebbeim,
Number118,,,,, Hillary Clinton has plenty of openings for staff you are sure to get a position after all ,,,,,your resume reads , nay screams MISOGNY,,, that’s your sorry excuse ,,,, since your נשמה anyhow was by מתן תורה,,, you probably screamed MISOGYNY,, that the תורה was given by משה רבינו,,,,
I don’t understand why there is so much confusion and misunderstanding and is many people shaming and blaming each other out. Stop that! Ok, I feel that it is not right to give a list on how to be צניעות. It doesn’t work these days. You have to do it with love- not by force. The way is by dealing and trying to help this generation and make it better. By forcing you will not get anywhere. Forcing is not the way. Do you know how many people are off the derech because of what Bnos Menachem did to them??… Read more »
*To Deserve the Rebbe’s Bracha* The Rebbe Maharash was not present at the wedding of his son, the Rebbe Rashab, which took place in Ovrutch, the hometown of the kalla, Rebbetzin Shterna Sara. After the wedding, when the new couple traveled to Lubavitch, the chosson suggested to his kalla that she ask her father-in-law to give her the brachos she deserved, for had he been at the wedding, he would of course have bensched them under the chuppa. In response to her request, the Rebbe Maharash replied, “Of course – on condition that you cut off that feather.” She was… Read more »
*To Deserve the Rebbe’s Bracha* The Rebbe Maharash was not present at the wedding of his son, the Rebbe Rashab, which took place in Ovrutch, the hometown of the kalla, Rebbetzin Shterna Sara. After the wedding, when the new couple traveled to Lubavitch, the chosson suggested to his kalla that she ask her father-in-law to give her the brachos she deserved, for had he been at the wedding, he would of course have bensched them under the chuppa. In response to her request, the Rebbe Maharash replied, “Of course – on condition that you cut off that feather.” She was… Read more »
I think that the Tznius rules are amazing. I’m just concerned that we are not trying to be a different type of Chassidim. We are Chabad after all, and anyone who grew up in the Bais Rivkah system would not necessarily feel that we have the need for short wigs etc.The rest is not needed to be explained.
@ 120
An opinion or forced. Big difference!!
you wouldnt have been denied education as there is beis rivka that is also a chabad school 🙂
bm isnt the only school in crown heights.
theres ateres chaya, beis rivka, beis chaya mushka and bnos menachem,
i think each parent can choose whats best for their family!
hopeing we can all live in achdus! achdus is the main thing!
Last I checked, a married couple or a family is a joint venture. Women comment to their husbands all the time about what they wear, how they dress and even shop for clothing for them. Yet, somehow, when a man wants to comment on how women should dress, something that is not just a fashion comment, but rather impactfull on the spiritual well being of the family – the man is told to stay out of it. I hate to break it to you ladies: you may not like what the man has to say, but we are still entitled… Read more »
True! We see a huge difference in the kids in the crown heights schools that put an emphasis on tznius an dthsje that do not. It’s not only the tznius that’s affected. There is a complete lack of Kabolos ol and disinterest in yiddishkeit. Right now their students threw out the idea of tznius unfortunately I feel in a short time they will throw out a whole lots more.
Notice how all the responses in favor of the bnos menachem tznius rules are men. Sruli Shochet, you are a MAN. You do not get a say in this!! And to Rabbi Gurary: what are you thinking?! Why are people agreeing with him?! THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH DENIM!!! Will someone please explain to me what is not tznius about denim?! And don’t start saying it is because it’s a “non Jewish trend”, we all know that is a cop out! And don’t even get me started on the shaitel rule! Men need to stay out of this!! I think… Read more »
I completely agree with you. Why push it on people, especially nowadays? If you push too hard Rabbi, your plan will probably backfire
A very nice idea. Yashar koach.
Wow! Everyone should read what number 49 says. Indeed a revolutionary idea!
Would you stand before the Rebbe dressed/wearing any of the things listed on Rabbi Gurary’s list? Would you seriously walk before the Rebbe in a sheitel down your back and tight clothes? If the answer is “no” then there you have your answer. Rabbi Gurary is 100% correct
I don’t wear denim for a couple of years. I used to. But I don’t make any conversation with any man who is not my husband, father or brother. I’m very makpid on Yichud, I don’t go with a male driver, no technician coming to my house when my husband is not home, not even with the main door opened. They could only come when my husband is home. That’s the way I have always been. Unfortunately, I have seen many women who dress very tznius, not up to date, very unappealing – make long conversations with men, go with… Read more »
I don’t believe the author of the article is saying that we should judge someone else that has a moldy peel. Who are we to judge? We don’t know their background and what their story is. But it is more of an interpersonal reflection- to look at yourself and make improvements.
As far as Rabbi Gurary goes, he is not saying people that don’t dress this way are bad. He is saying that these are the standards we would like to see in our school body, which included students and parents.
@ POST 51 i TOTALLY AGREE RE MISOGYNY. Men controlling women, i wrote scathing email to my sweet chabad rabbi re this issue, The list of sinful dress is a mixed bag, Wouldst that this letter were never written to threaten mothers paying excessive money in order to educate their daughters al pi chabad, The WIG LENGTH, mindblowing, women’s hair is too sexual or mystical or whatever school you follow, so she needs a wig, And geferlich, not a heathen wig, through out thousands of dollars, now, the length, well, why, is it too attractive??? men won’t be able to… Read more »
Are there any studies on Wich community’s are more successful in maintaining tznius standard’s and keeping children on the derech? That would be the only way to know Witch method works and Witch doesnt.
From my contact with my relatives in boro park and it seems that that are much more successful with tznius and chinuch, maybe we can learn something from them.
all the “nay-sayers” overlooked the fact that this is a private school… no one id forcing anyone to go there…. they are rediculing whatever they don’t agree with in a public forum that is loshen hara whichever way you want to look at it. And they keep bashing the fact thst “a man” wrote this Well so did men write Shulchn Aruch…siches etc all pertaining to “halacha” taking time to do some basic homework before shooting one’s mouth off on a matter that doesn’t concern them…. “Chaya Sara Waldman” is can be credited wiith starting this vitriolic stouch of lashen… Read more »
Of course i look at my wife and i love her inner and outer beuty.
I am saying that when you walk in the streets of ch there are untzniyus people ALL over. Even if u dont want to see it, it is in your face. This is chabad? This is lubavitch?
What type of community is this when everyone does whatever the heck they want? Walk around naked the whole day in your house but not In the street please!
The issue isn’t the style of the Rav’s letter, but the fact that he wrote it at all. To discuss your students is one thing- to take it upon yourself to decide that it is within your jurisdiction to determine the dress, sheitle and nail polish of someone’s mother is ludicrous IF it’s beyond what is held by the standards of the Rebbe. Forgive me- I’m going to listen to the Rebbe instead. Beyond that I’m shocked to see someone promoting the concept of shame as a good one in this context. Shame is only good as an internal feeling-… Read more »
Are you talking about the chabad community in monsey or the non chabad community ?
Rarely do we see a topic that creates this much controversy
And commotion
Please bare in mind
It is clear
Some people are more challenged than others
That is it
WHAT SHOULD BE DONE TO ALLEVIATE THIS PROBLEM IS TO MAKE CLASSES FOR PARENTS IN THE SCHOOL.
TEACH THE MOTHERS THE BEAUTY OF DRESSING CLASSY AND PROPER.
THE REBBE SAID: “YOU CANNOT TELL SOMEONE WHAT TO DO BUT YOU CAN TEACH THEM”
My daughter did not go to any schools in Crown Heights And went to a school that had a modest dress code and thank God she appreciates dressing that way all the time because it was a way of life over there. Add a Nother daughter who goes to a school in Crown Heights Asked me a few times how is it that they speak at school about dressing modestly and when there’s no school and I’m walking down the Avenue I see the same TEACHERS who are telling me about dressing modestly are walking around not in a modest… Read more »
It’s funny I purposely send my children to an modern orthodox school, where everyone dresses modestly. Yes elbows and hair maybe showing but not one parent or teacher ever shows up provocatively. As opposed to the local Lubavitch school where all the right parts are covered but teachers look totally immodest and parents dress in even less. My MO friends often point this out and ask how come they are considered not “tznius.” They are always judged and assumed as lacking in yiddiskeit,even by local shluchim who are also not up to standards. I have no answer to them. I… Read more »
עלה והצלח בעבודתך הקדושה בחיזוק הצניעות של אנ”ש ביחד עם שאר פעולותיך לטובת אנ”ש שיחיו, ותמשיך להיות דוגמה חיה לחסיד מקושר נגיד ועסקן בדרכם של משפחת גורארי לדורותיהם שגרמו נחת רוח רב לרבותינו נשיאנו כידו בתקוה שממנו ילמדו וכן יעשו שאר נגידי ועסקני אנ”ש
When I was first becoming religious the rules were hard for me and I always pushed the envelope. My first visit to ch as an 18 year old girl was very traumatic. I bought a wardrobe that at the time I perceived as tznius, which I was very proud of and so was my oot mashpia. My first walk on Kingston was a walk of shame. Random ladies screaming at me, even grabbing me to tell me how terrible I was for my lack of tznius. This was the 90s and I couldn’t understand why the community of the rebbe… Read more »
If you are Lubavitcher (man or woman) then by definition you are chassidish as Lubavitch is a branch of chassidus. Now there is a whole lot that goes into leading a chasidish lifestyle both in terms of internal and external values. But we are now focusing on the externals in this debate. He is simply requiring a more chassidish “look” in his school or more tznius than the general level of CH. Is that really so bad, or such a big deal? If you send to Bnos Menachem I assume you consider yourself Lubavitch and therefore a Lubavitcher chosid. We… Read more »
Rabbi Gurary is on the right track to try to raise standards of his school. Had he not written rules that are personal stringicies and not within the framework of halacha, they would likely be more accepted. It would probably be a good idea that such a list of rules be either signed off by a Rav, or at least be brought with sources. I’m sure that would get less resistance
yes, we accept everyone. however, you FFB should and do know better. so you are stam rebelling.
I moved from CH to Monsey. One of the reasons was because Monsey does have better tznious. I can’t tell you how to fix your problem but imho, one of the reasons Lubavitch in Monsey does not struggle as much with this issue is because noone is obsessing over it. There’s no man at the girls schools with rulers checking skirt lengths, there’s no Mrs. T***** harassing students or parents over Tznious. Rather Tznious is taught sensitively and in the scope of all other mitzvahs that are adhered to. The girls (and their mothers) really internalize the mitzvah just as… Read more »
period.
I’m having a hard time understanding why a waver given by a school small school in ch is sparking such a big discussion, Why is it not obvious that a school trying to maintain a high standard would only except children who’s parents behavior matches that which the school expects of it’s students, why are we turning this into a discussion about how we should be addressing tznius in ch, get over it everybody!! No one made this a community issue, it’s just for the school to weed out girls who don’t fit the school standard so that it doesn’t… Read more »
*The Wall that Protects Klal Yisroel* Rabbi Shneur Zalman Gafni relates: Before traveling to the Rebbe for Tishrei 5730 (1969), my wife asked me to discuss with the Rebbe a tznius gathering which had taken place in Bnei Brak. The gathering was headed by the Rov, HaRav Yaakov Landau, and my wife was one of the organizers. I had many things to discuss with the Rebbe, but I added a few words about it at the end of my note. I was surprised when the Rebbe replied in short to all the other issues, and began speaking about this subject… Read more »
Have you tried hiring a private detective? Yes, I live in CH. No, my name is not in the Tzach directory. And why does this matter?
You are GREAT.
I admire your broad view.
KOL HAKAVOD
I began teaching in terms 70’s when it was difficult to find tznius clothing. I made an apron to wear over my short skirts until I had enough money to change my wardrobe. Now I have many daughters, granddaughters and greatgranddaughters BH who are all tznius. Children see thru hypocrisy. BCM has stressed tznius from its opening. Always done with love and respect. Now other schools following their example.
As someone who is in CH all the time for simchos, I have to question the representation of the adults dressing in what the overall Chabad community perceives to be ‘tznius’. “How can you tell if that woman walking toward you is Chabad or not Jewish? If her dress is skin-tight, she’s Chabad.” I see this almost every day. I also see and hear the adults, and even the children swearing. The way we talk is how others (read: the rest of the world) hear us. How can we claim to be of purity when, while we watch what goes… Read more »
Chabad Feminist?!?!?!? You have no idea what Chabad is
Period
Feminist you surely are ,,,, you probably got your cue from your hero Hillary ,,,, blame YOUR failure on misogyny,,,, Rabbi Gourary is nothing but an איש חסד ,,,, time for another ” feminist march”,,,,, your most welcome there !!!
You need to get more info before coming to conclusion – Also since when a man should be the one to tell a women if ther are dress tznius or to look at women to tell them if they are dress appropriate or not, why don’t they create a vaad of ladies to decide what appropriate whats not ?? Vdal
Putting the focus of the parents tznius makes so much sense. Parents are the number one role models. Positive peer pressure among adults is OK too. Of course there are other problems and sources but this is still a huge step. Rabbis and men are allowed to have a say in Halacha and in educating. And I am a women speaking. This letter makes sense, at least being tznius on the outside is a huge step. I’m sure the school is doing their best to try to get to the girls inside as well!
Why are you looking at women in the first place?
you should be looking at your wife and even then look at her inner beauty and not be looking at her or others as objectifying lustfuly.
;My husband and I moved to Crown Heights over fourty years ago. B”H we have raised a beautiful, Chassidishe family in Kan Tziva Hashem es Habrocho. However, there were many challenges with regard to tznius. Walking in the streets of CH, going into a Drs. office, shopping in the grocery etc. all were problematic, because of the lack of tznius in our community. , When it came to shidduchim for our sons, we really felt that our son’s shidduchim were a true gift from the aibishter, in that we were able to find girls who dressed,spoke and behaved in a… Read more »
Gurary’s letter in concept is fine, and he’s not the only one! I know a mother who’s son goes to Lubaitcher Yeshiva and lives across the road, she would often pick up her son wearing a tichel, she was told off, and now must put on a sheitel to walk less than fifty feet, and she acknowledges that the school was right! no outcry there! the issue with guaray’s letter is that he demands too much, way above any chabad standard! sheitels not below the shoulders? never heard of in Chabad, always accepted, the Rebbe told woman that they need… Read more »
Whilst you are most certainly a feminist, please don’t call yourself Chabad, and as you’re suggesting that some of us should move to williamsburg perhaps you should move on and find a modern orthodox community where you would feel more comfortable
I work at a “prestigious” Jewish organization and outwardly the people there look “yeshivish” but they lie at almost every opportunity to prop up their positions financially and their stature while keeping down hard working individuals (non-rabbis) This, unfortunately, is exactly what zniut is all about. Looking the part regardless of how you actually act. Have you ever seen a yid talk to their goyta! It is more than embarrassing, it’s cringe worthy most of the time. I have interacted with the nicest people whose elbows were uncovered. And I’ve dealt with the nastiest people with long beards or expensive… Read more »
I went to a non-Jewish “Ivy League” type high school with a dress code (boys in jackets and tie, girls in skirts). We had one day each year called “dress-down day” where you could wear jeans, etc. One thing is for certain: Behavior dramatically changed on dress-down day. I learned more about the power of dress from this than anything else. We all knew it – on dress down day, we “dressed down”… and everything else started slipping too.
I’m not for being over the top. But these days it seems many people forgot what wearing clothes means. Or the school that is proud of their ” rule is to have no rules ” we all know how their parents and students dress ( little is left to the imagination)
Lubavitch is about love! Instead of being embarrassed and comparing us to other communities consider us being more real. Instead of doing shlichus outside of crown heights keep it going in crown heights as wel
lnspire those children whose parents are not tsnius or not religious in other halochos instead of turning them away! Let everyone be! Punishing the kids for their parents or judging the parent is not the way, they are doing their very best!!!
To all those who say chabad is ahavas yisroel and loving and accepting of everyone…how do we react to those that dress not tzniyus? U cant say anything. U cant write anything u cant do anything. We just smile and say we accept u? I dont know the answer. Walking down kingston these days is disgusting. I bh live outa ch, but every time i come, I feel sick looking at the way some woman and girls dress(or forget to get dressed) and yes ITS IN YOUR FACE! I cant walk around ch with my glasses. Girls and woman can… Read more »
Thank you Rabbi Gurary for standing up for kovoid shem Lubavitch. The Rebbe has emphasized the great importance of tznius. People who argue with that should stop beating around the bush: are you Lubavitcher chassidim or some hippies on a feel good spiritual quest. Don’t melt like snowflakes when someone makes you uncomfortable with truth.
Also there is no Chaya Waldman in CH.
You lost me at “Modern Orthodox”. Why the condescending quotes?? Why do you need to put other Jews down – to feel superior in your devotion to Ha-shem? Sigh. You correctly note that “Improving oneself internally is difficult. It requires serious honesty and introspection. Changing our outward appearance is easier. It is a simple step we can take in recapturing our natural refinement, which in turn will be a step in the direction of improving our inner core.” If you think dressing the part will help you be more refined in your inner core and will help you find a… Read more »
I have been thinking about CH anash for years and chabad bala battim and communities . Chabad needs a plan for its bala battim if anash to raise us all higher . “tzu gebudin oben ” . 1) adopt a bala bos : Shluchim working with merkos should have bala batim come to them for yom tov and help with shlichus etc 2) chabad on the job : organize all bala battim working in the city etc to do mivtziom where they work , shuirim , Mincha minyan etc . help them do it through tzach . 3) mentors in… Read more »
to #63 you are mistaken. The Rebbe often (maybe always?) encouraged people to ‘do the right thing’ in their actions, regardless of their inner feelings or understanding, and the understanding and appreciation will follow. it is not ‘chitzoniyus’ but rather the Rebbe’s shita. You become refined by your actions and choices. to #69 Rabbi Gourarie is not defining halacha, he is setting a standard for his school. If he feels bright nailpolish or leggings are not reflective of the type of aidelkeit he is trying to nurture in his students, then why does that bother you?? do you go to… Read more »
Its a tremendous chilul H” and of course chilul chabad and the rebbe!!!!
A Baal chessed par excellence, together with his wife leah. Opened this school and runs it with mesiras nefesh,expense,aggravation and everything it takes to run a Moised. He is allowed,indeed he should be obligated to,set standards for acceptance. Yasher koyach tô him!! Tznius has sadly become a big bone of contention in our worldwide Lubavitcher community. It’s sad a real shame on all of us.there is too much emotion to have a rational discussion about it,nor is this the forum,but it does need to be addressed. These 2 articles are about the right or wrong of an individual to set… Read more »
I became a baalat tshuva at age 12. My parents would not have signed that letter. I would have been denied entry to this school. Does this sound right that children be punished for parents sins??????
Rabbi gurari is out of line. There is no halacha against denin skirts. Never heard about color of nailpolish or about leggings. This halacha should be decided by rabbanim of bais din rabbi schwei or rabbi braun. Or by rabbi osdaba. Since when is rabbi guari a posek for the community. Much better to just have children wear uniforms as in bet rivka. Obviously rabbi gurari wont take children who are baalei tshuva as their parents wont sign to his standard
Please look into the Rebbe’s sichos.
Should the Rebbe not speak about how lax tzinius has become????
Evidently, this issue touched a raw nerve in CH. There are over 500 comments all around on this issue.
To Rabbi Gourary
חזק ואמץ. Keep up the good work.
Rabbi Gourary has the tzniyus issue thrown in his face, so why blame him? What Mechitza? These mothers are obviously walking in to his school daily to bring their children to school, should he walk around his school wearing blinders, or carry a mechitzah with him wherever he goes? This Rabbi is obviously focused on his goal/message, rising above what people think, rising above all the criticism that he knew would come from such a letter, his position isn’t popular, but he is focusing on correct Halachic standards. There’s a saying I’ve heard: “Impress G-d, not man”. What would impress… Read more »
Bnos Menachem to teach the girls Tzniyus, if the mothers arent dressing Tzniyus? Its erasing all lessons the school is trying to teach the kids, if the moms dress how they want. Maybe the parents who chose bnos menachem for their girls can work WITH the school to provide the chinuch they sent their daughter there for, instead of destroying the tznius message that bnos menachem is trying to impart, by dressing in the opposite manner of what the school which THEY chose, is trying to impart? When you choose a specific school for your daughter, how about working WITH… Read more »
B”H
For those who wrote in the previous article that at the end of the day, there is no difference from a BM girl to BR, as a seminary head, I see a tremendous difference. In midos, aidelkeit, as well as tznius. Less attitude, less chutzpa, less ego. Just saying, from a few years of interviews and actually teaching and dealing with the girls.
Perhaps: “m’toch shelo leshma, ba leshma”.
right! so lets paint the peel with a very strong fluorescent orange, and all our problems are fixed!
the typical chitzoinius that is destroying our community and our children !
Since my daughters have gone to you’re scool I have been way more careful how I dress then ever before ty.
The known ספר החינוך states may times (he is from the reshonim & there is no known opposing opinion) “אדם נפעל כפי פעולותיו” which means your outward behavior will affect your פנימיות and shouldn’t wait for your פנימיות to be in order first. So “אחרי הפעולות נמשכים הלבבות” is the way to go. Keep in mind that Judaisim isn’t an open religion with the locals having their input but rather is to be kept the way it was passed down. For the others there is already Reform. Why reinvent the wheel?
If you have such high standards for the girls. Why not allow any boy in yeshiva who trims his beard. I believe it’s a double standard. The problem we have today we don’t give each boy or girl the ability to find the sweet taste of Yiddishkiet. We just make more rules and restrictions. By the time they finish with seminary or yeshiva they throw it all away. We need to chance the method of how we deliver the message. We have the rebbe who accepted everyone no matter what level he or she was holding. We must instill the… Read more »
I recall being very close to Lubavitch years ago when I was 18-20 years old. What held me back from making the ultimate dive & become a tomim was that the preaching didn’t match the products produced primarily as far as Tznius goes. I was given all types of explanations that people fall through & some are baalei teshuva etc etc. For me the bottom line was whether it has become a שיטה by some in Lubavitch or not. To me that is the difference between orthodox & reform. Orthodox will also talk loshon hora etc but it hasn’t become… Read more »
To all the geniuses asking why it’s Rabbi G’s place to comment: he runs a girls school!!! It is kind of his job. If you don’t like his style, don’t send your kids to his school.
Quite frankly, I am proud that all my sisters have gone to Bais Yaakov. With them, items like tznius, derech eterz and plain ole good midos are the norm. Sad that we need to go out of lubavitch to get that…
1St of all,you’re getting caught in details which don’t make a difference in what he’s trying to say, yes it might be true about what you said how an orange works physically, but that clearly wasn’t the point of what he was trying to say(interestingly recently exactly what he said occurred to me, how I took an orange which looked fresh and juicy on the outside but rotten on the inside) 2ND yes it’s true that we have to work on pnimiyus, but that doesn’t mean that till we are prefect in our pnimiyus we should be walking naked in… Read more »
My two cents: It’s his school. He has the right to set its standards (especially since there are other schools in CH) The orange metaphor contradicts Avot 4:20: “Said Rabbi Meir: Look not at the vessel, but at what it contains”. It is also true that non-kosher food in a kosher pot is still not kosher. Anyone (especially Male Rabbonim) may comment on any Torah issue. Tzniut is not solely within the purview of women (although the letter probably would have been more PC if it was signed by the school administration). Weighing the severity of Mitzvot contradicts Avot 2:1… Read more »
do you live in crown heights?
the families where men wear shorts trust me the women arent fully covered either. my dad and brothers wear the same stuff in the summer as a whole year round except they have short sleeves but thats the only difference. no shorts, yes socks….
To all those who are causing issues based their hurt feelings. The truth hurts. And your only hurt because you know he is write. If this was the only community school, then they would have to accept all those who are part of the community weather or not they keep to the rules. The rebbes view on that is we only send a chilled away is if they are negatively influencing others. Bieng that there are many other Lubavitch girls school, he has every rite to make rules. If you don’t like them send your chiled somwere else. I applaud… Read more »
Firstly, Rabbi Schochet’s article is respectful, on point, & explains the issue in easy language, so everyone can get it. If you disagree with him, that’s you’re prerogative. What isn’t is the harshness of many of the responses to an article written respectfully and without anger. I noticed one common thread in the 327 comments on “Mrs. Waldman’s” letter: almost everyone was furious. The tone of the vast majority of the comments, not to mention the actual language used, detracts from your message. As Rabbi Schochet says, first impressions count. It’s hard to get the message across if it is… Read more »
Rabbi Gourary is simply cloaking his blatant misogyny under the guise of Halacha. As the author of the previous article pointed out, Rabbi Gourary’s true motive here is his desire for women to be subservient to him. I’m sorry Rabbi Gourary, but you, as a privileged male, do not get to dictate what women do with their bodies. Women are not your chattel, and they will dress as they please. If you don’t like it, Williamsburg would be a more suitable place for you.
I like this line 🙂
Dear Rabbi Gurary and all his supporters, If you really want to be successful and build a real future for this community you need to dream big and I mean really big instead of continuing to oppress people with all these rules and regulations you need to start empowering your people and the only way to do that is by creating a campaign to completely and totally use all of the amazing talents of the people in this community Showcase the most beautiful clothing in a fantastic presentation for the entire community to come and see designed by our very… Read more »
#18 o please. He did not say he agrees with all the rules rabbi g said. He is saying someone that walks around not tzniyus is rotton.
#25 you probly wrote a nice comment, and want us to read it. Please spell a bit better
#42 wow, every jewish school in the world goes against halacha…a shool cant have ANY standerds? What are u saying?
Bnos menachem is right. Leggings are so often a stumbling block, as it’s very easy to have gaps between the socks and the leggings…that’s if the person is wearing socks at all.
But that’s a whole other story. Point is, bnos menachem has taken the initiative to do something about a crisis that so many ppl just stand and sigh about. And for that, I applaud bnos menachem and rabbi gurary.
A br graduate
Denim should be the biggest sin of 2017.
Seriously!
Why should someone that’s not frum want to come to a crown heights school if SO MANY OF OUR GIRLS LOOK LIKE THEM? When I walked down the street today the amount of knees I say today were HORRIFIC! Ribono shel olam! Get ur act together and keep Halacha! What’s with all of ur excuses of let’s work on other stuff or it shouldn’t be coming from a man? So maybe it shouldn’t have. But it did. And it’s true. Open ur eyes and see it.
You write: “Shame (the kind you are referring to) is one of the most destructive emotions”. But R’ Yochanan told his students: הלואי שיהא מורא שמים עליכם כמורא בשר ודם. “It would be a good thing if your fear of heaven would be like the fear you have of a human [seeing you doing something wrong]”. When you are doing what is practically correct it can have a huge effect on the way you think and feel. The Rebbe always stressed doing what is right first, and only afterwards trying to internalise it. The Rebbe’s way is the way of… Read more »
This topic must be brought to CH rabonim and have open public discussion … yes we are mothers and some might be struggle more but we put our kids to CH schools to be better then us in all …. we live here and pay very high price for all … we all need is respect and ahavas Isroel … it’s too much pressure for the women to be ashamed because of her look in public , pls find soft , calm , nice and beautiful way to make all women shine their beauty and our community will only be… Read more »
It is 100% against halacha for him to turn away a child who wants to learn torah, because her mom doesn’t keep halacha. Don’t stick up for a man who wants halacha when it works for his brand image.
It’s against halacha to charge for teaching torah. Its against halacha to turn away a child who cannot pay his fees. It is 100% against halacha for him to turn away a child who wants to learn torah, because her mom doesn’t keep halacha.
Is this our way? If a non drum girl would want to go to gurary’s school should he let her in? No, and yet we have chabad houses and send 12 year old boys to manhattan to do mivtzoin and bring ppl back to yidhishkeit? Gurary’s letter is like punching someone who is in the middle of a fight screaming ahavas yisroel. If one person goes off the way because of this letter would the rebbe be proud of that ? Why not do things the way the rebbe did, with love. Talking about women tzniuse is the easy way… Read more »
All this fuss over a few rules. Maybe they are extreme but thats not for the rest of the chabad world to discuss.
It’s an old story!! The reason why reuven, the eldest, lost the melucha and kings come from yehuda, is not because he was WRONG, it was because it was NOT appropriate for him to do it. There can be no answer as to why a male rabbi talks, never mind writes or even knows about “Tight fitting womens clothing” or the colors of women’s nails! This is for mothers to teach their girls. The issue is Rabbi G. stuck his head out to the wrong side of the mechitza and wrote very halachcly inappropriate descriptions that a man should not… Read more »
There are people who dress tznius who do shameful things in public. Ask girls who had teachers shame them in front of their class. Ask women who have large families but not enough money who hear people talk about them behind their backs. Ask men who go to shul but don’t get an aliya for months because they don’t have thirty times chai. Just because someone has an outward appearance of refinement does not mean that they act in a refined way publicly. The might stretch forth their necks, wink their eyes, and raise themselves when they walk.
all good
but here it goes again the men telling and pointing
high time that the women speak up and have them tell the women
and how about the men yes the men telling the men yes the men for a change
Terrible moldy peel analogy. You can’t compare moldy peels as an indicator of rotten fruit to ones dress in a manner he does this approve of as an indicator of “rotten character.” Human beings are a little different than fruit. No one will argue what mold is but appropriate dress is subjective and changes according to different people. Plus, it is no indicator of human flaws.
Please can we not have another man discussing tznius- it’s so very wrong
My absolute biggest pet peeve is people from out of crown heights giving their opinions on this matter
So crazy that tznius is being turned into opinions. Rabbi gurary wants strict standards of tznius upheld at his school. Nobody needs opinions here. It is his choice to stand up for what’s right. He didn’t make stuff up. Anyone can check it up in the book oz vehadar levusha. If someone doesn’t “agree”-doesn’t want to keep Halacha- go to beis rivka- there you can bring your kid to school practically in a bathing suit and then complain that men shouldn’t be looking anyway.
For all those bitter CHers cursing everyone out the whole day, while wearing next to nothing and doing who knows what with gd knows who, listen to me GET OUT OF CH!YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS HERE! JUST CZ YOUR PARENTS LIVE HERE, THAT DOESN’T GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO DEFILE AND impurify our community! Move to Monsey l, Florida, California, but not here!
I think we should appoint him to decide all rules, that we should live by.
BS”D # 10: PS you question (rightfully so) her desire to limit Rabbi G’s desire to correct something while other issues remain in her eyes more important ones at that (dubious but immaterial) while at the same time tell her bc she is not yet a Baal Chesed she has no right to an opinion. A bit hypocritical or incongruous
Waldman never suggests that tznius should be compromised! Read her letter! What she says is that spotlighting girls’ legs is not the ‘aidelkeit’ and ‘kedusha’ that defines tznius. What she says is that the incessant unrelenting focus on girls skin and nail polish and legs and ‘tight clothing’ completely subverts the true meaning of tznius. What she says is that we need to find a way to get girls to INTEGRATE the concept of tznius. And, most of all, what she says is that this way hasn’t worked! It’s not a new idea that Bnos Menachem came up w ith… Read more »
With all do respect… The previous letter was not saying that women should be ok with dressing untzniusly. It was saying tznuis can not be accomplished through manipulation and control and to do so is diminishing to the essence of tznuius itself! Tznius is the most beautiful when embraced properly and healthily, but control, coercion and trying to shame someone will never produce a healthy result. There are different kinds of shame. Shame (the kind you are referring to) is one of the most destructive emotions. Youth are going through the most difficult time to live these days. The idea… Read more »
Written so well, so true, so clear to the point. You are so right!
BS”D I don’t remember any Chesed that # 10 let’s remember was involved in. She stated her opinion. It can be objected to without ridicule and scorn. People who do so such as # 10 certainly are not Baal Cheseds either and for that matter why does she even have to be a Baal Chesed to respond. Comments like # 10’s are sickening
Why is it that we publicize only imagined negative of our precious daughter’s
They are the envy of bnos yisroel
The ahava emuna they have on theirlittle finger does not match bto. Anyone even in a burka
Cut it out
All the pros tzadikim etc get a life
Its very simple
כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה
and all men
לא תתורו אתרי עיניכם
even צניעותדיקע dressed people
Thank you for the wonderful mashal! Shame is a concept that is forbidden (politically incorrect) in this modern era. The absents of it is rotting our country.
kudos rabbi schochet. You said your words clearly and they make sense 100%. It’s nice that you wrote your name and openly applaud rabbi gurary.
if her chesed is done b’tznius then that is why you didn’t hear about it
Beautiful
Beautiful article, beautiful message. Thanks for responding to the op-ed!
Thank you for speaking up. And thank you to Rabbi Gourarie for taking a stand!! It takes a lot to do what he did, and it is very much appreciated. To others, like the author of the first article, who have other causes they see as top priority- how about taking a stand for what you believe in and do something about it? Don’t use other worthy causes just as an excuse to dismiss a very burning issue that you’d rather ignore…
So a woman in denim is “rotten through and through”?
Women are quite capable of making their own decisions as to what is proper dress.. I cringe when I see women all covered up on a hot day and men wearing shorts. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander too!
The author clearly doesn’t know much about citrus fruit. Ironically with citrus, the peel is the first part to go, and it moves inward. You can easily have a moldy peel orange that is fine on the inside. So, too, those who don’t look “chasidisch” enough to those who are busy judging the externals, will often find a very emesdich person on the inside. Instead of demanding an outside appearance that can mean next to nothing, how about demanding we all stop judging, and looking to people’s insides instead?
unfortunately kabel es haemes is hard to take from everyone, especially this author.
There is no chaya Sara waldman in the tzach list! Just a pen name written by someone who does not.want to face reality!
👍
Thank you for writing this
Love this article
RABBI GOURARI IS A TRUE BAAL CHESED WHO’S INVOLVED IN MANY COMUNITY ISSUES, I DON’T REMEMBER EVER HEARING OF A CHESED PROJECT THAT THIS WALDMAN LADY WAS INVOLVED WITH.
thank you for taking the time to write a true and honest and correct response
Very well put! As a fellow Angelino, I cringe whenever I go to Crown Heights. It is embarrassing that in the rebbes schuna it’s difficult to differentiate between the Lubavitchers and the yuppies!
shame is good when it is for Hashem. But if it is just something you do in order for your kids to get accepted to school or for shidduchim then it is nothing to do with shame. It’s just how to get ahead in life.
I agree.
IF CROWN HEIGHTS HAD MORE PEOPLE LIKE HIM IT WOULD BE A MUCH BETTER PLACE.
KEEP UP YOUR GOOD WORK AND MAY HASHEM BLESS YOU WITH GEZUNT PARNASA AND NACHAS AND MUCH HATZLACHA IN YOUR HOLY WORK.
Very well said.
Kodos to Rabbi Gourary for taking a stand.
“My father wrote in a letter: Cherish criticism, for it will place you on the true heights.”
This is very impressive! Much kudos for taking a stand and voicing your opinion.
Great article I