Summary of a conversation between Rabbi Shais Taub and Devora Krasnianski about how to help your Rav help you with Shalom Bayis.
Listen to the full recording:
The Crown Heights Jewish Community Council is working to bring awareness and education about Shalom Bayis and Domestic Violence in the community. This call is one of the series.
You can be coming to the Rav for a psak or for advice and encouragement for a problem in the marriage. Just be clear – to him and yourself: Are you coming for a halachic ruling or for a conversation with someone who is learned?
Q: If someone is coming to the Rav to pasken (make an Halachic ruling) about a situation, what should she be aware of? A Rav can’t tell you the halacha about a situation without knowing the details of the situation. Use all resources available to you – the mental health professional and the Rav. When going to the Rav, you should already have guidance from a mental health professional. When you tell the Rav what your mental health professional has recommended, the Rav can then tell you if according to Halacha you can follow that advice.
Q: Many people turn to a Rav for advice and guidance (as in Asei lcha Rav) about Shalom Bayis issues. What insight can you share in that regard?
Most people who ask Shalom Bayis questions have waited until it was larger problem. There are a lot of questions that should have been brought to a Rav – but aren’t. Most questions that do finally come to a Rav are about a misunderstanding or clash of personalities. These questions can benefit from an objective, learned, G-d fearing third party. Other questions are based on dysfunction.
Most people will call the Rav when there is an acute crisis, in desperation. When desperate, we don’t think clearly or articulate clearly. It is not best to call a Rav in that state of desperation. If in an emergency situation, call 911, not your Rav. As possible, call the Rav when you are calm and thinking straight; it will be so much more productive. In that moment of desperation, make a firm resolution to call your Rav in a few days. And then actually call, even if you are feeling less desperate a few days later.
Q: Some people come to a Rav to ask him to make the other person change. Can you talk to that?
Don’t ask someone else’s question: “What should the other person be doing?” A good question is “What should I do?”
Even in the healthiest relationships, you can’t control and change other people’s behaviors. Thinking that your happiness (or sanity) is dependent on someone else’s behavior is another level of self victimization. We don’t have free will over other people’s actions. We do have free will over our own thoughts, speech and action. We have power when we use our free will.
When we give over our free will to someone else, we have no power. When we assume the role for being responsible for another adult’s behaviors – that is a form of self-victimization. When we put any energy toward trying to change another, we are losing our own power.
The way to get back your power and energy is: Focus on yourself. This absolutely does not mean to take the blame and responsibility for the other person’s behaviors. Focus on yourself means: “If I am not for myself, who is for me?” This means: only I can fix myself. Only I can make myself feel OK; I cannot rely on anyone else. Only G-d can tell me that I’m valid and worthwhile. No one else! We should not make our success in life conditional on someone else’s behavior or words.
“If not now, when?” NOW. You can have a normal life now – not relying on other people’s change.
Create your boundaries. Empower yourself to say “Here are my values and standards and I hope you don’t cross them and if you do, I will do XYZ to remove myself” A boundary is not a threat. You are not giving any power away. A boundary is NEVER about what someone is going to do, it is only about what I am going to do to protect my own values.
Q: What are effective mindsets about Shalom Bayis in general?
The hardest thing to do is to keep the focus on ourselves. But it is also the most productive and empowering. Trying to get someone else to do something is depleting, exhausting and ‘insane-making’ for yourself. When you ask “What should I do?”, you are asking a strong question and you are likely to get a strong answer.
Q: What would ‘working in tandem with a therapist and Rav’ look like?
You can only succeed in life (and in therapy) if you are true to your value system. The Rav can help you clarify and solidify your Torah value system, as related to the situation. A therapist will not necessarily help you define your values. You have to come to therapy with clear values. Working with a therapist and a Rav in tandem might be coming to your Rav to check if the therapist’s advice is aligned with Torah and hashkafa.
It might be useful to ask your rav for a referral for a mental health professional who is aligned with Torah and hashkafa.
Q: Any other advice from rabbis to help make such conversations even more productive?
1. It is most helpful to have a consistent relationship with your Rav. Once you have a rapport with your Rav, it will be less uncomfortable for you to come to him with questions. The better the Rav knows the nuances of your life, the more nuanced he can answer your questions.
First thing a married couple should do is choose your family Rav and build the relationship. If you do not yet have that relationship with a Rav, start now. It’s not too late.
2. Be clear and forthcoming. Do not downplay the severity of the situation. Don’t expect the Rav to read into your ‘hints’ or euphemisms.
3. Write down your points before coming to the Rav.
4. An attitude of ‘focusing on myself’, ‘I’m taking care of myself’, ‘I’m working within Hashem’s plan’ – will help you be more confident and clear when speaking with your Rav.
5. It’s OK to cry. The Rav has seen that before. You’re not going to shock the Rav.
Q: Should both spouses come together to discuss Shalom Bayis? In the ‘typical’ situations, where the Rav can be helpful as an objective third party – yes, come together.
There are situations, where one feels uncomfortable or unsafe going with the spouse. Don’t let that hold you back from speaking with your Rav. Explain to the Rav that you are not comfortable coming with your spouse and why. Talk that out.
Q: Can you, should you, bring an advocate with you when speaking to your Rav? Definitely as emotional support. But, not as the ‘thinker’/ ‘talker’. You must be the one in the conversations and implementing.
Q: Is an office visit with the Rav better than a phone conversation? No hard and fast rule. Some people do better on the phone, others in an in-person meeting.
Q: If something the Rav suggests doesn’t feel appropriate, is it OK to mention that? Mention that right away. Ask if what was said is advice or a psak. If you are having a hard time with your Rav’s advice, you can go back to him for more clarity. You can ask him to explain the rationale behind the advice.
Q: After speaking to one Rav, can I go to another? If you feel you are not getting the guidance and support from your Rav, change Rav. But don’t go to different Rav on question to question basis.
Motzai Shabbos Terumah 5748.
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SOMEBODY will be able to come up with a name here, in response to #11!
Please please read what Rabbi Taub said.
1. Work with a professional and rabbi at the same time.
2. If the guidance and advice doesn’t feel right, you can go to another rav.
3. What the rav advises is not halacha (unless it is), it is guidance and if it doesn’t feel right, ask him to clarify.
This article was published several days ago and so far, no one has written in to give us the name of a Rav who has given a positive outcome while counseling a couple where there is abuse (of any kind) . If you know of such a Rav – anywhere – please share the name. If no names are submitted, we will have to draw our own conclusions …
It is extremely rare that a rebbetzin, rabbi, or rav will admit what the one rebbetzin admitted to her, that she is qualified to only give SPIRITUAL guidance and that a licensed professional is the one to give the rest of the guidance. There are mashpiim in Crown Heights who fall asleep while a spouse or couple is pouring out their hearts to them. I have personally experienced this. There are mashpiim in Crown Heights who are duped by an abusive spouse and having been won over, effectively join up with the abuser to subtly (and sometimes not so subtly!)… Read more »
I’m aware of all the frum therapists who get the degree and now they are “experts” who can charge up to 200$ a seccion or MOREfor months and years on end, more often than not, not accepting payment directly from the insurer , just filling out forms and the family pays them everything UPFRONT getting a percentage back these polices suit their pocketbooks and are more convient , but out of tune from the finicincial realities that most frum families face, esp those with large families who are their “target” audience. The whole “I’m frum and I have the degree… Read more »
Rabbi Taub suggests working with a Rav and therapist in tandem. Says right there in the article.
Therapist for their expertuse and rav for his expertise in making sure all advice is aligned with torah and hashkafa.
BH – You are so very blessed to not have any idea what it is to be married to an abuser and to desperately need help!! In the literature of domestic abuse, you are known as a “civilian” bc just as a civilian can have no idea of the horrors of battle, so someone who has been spared dealing with a mentally ill controlling spouse doesn’t understand the situation at all. Your liberal use of quotation marks around the words: professionals, credentials, training, and education clearly expresses your sarcasm and lack of understanding. When you say that these therapists have… Read more »
We had a very rocky marriage to say the least and were constantly on the brink of divorce for 7 years. We were guided by the rabbis in our community throughout the entire time advise from writing it in to the igros to taharas hamishpacha, join the early minyan, more tzniuous, more tanya etc was all we were told. Until eventually we were advised to get divorced. Even the “frum therapists” advise was mixed emotionally with yiddishkeit. It was heartbreaking for my yiddishkeit because we tried and tried adding so many new hachlatos to no avail. I really wondered if… Read more »
Often in the forum velt, those that become “professionals” always encourage those to seek help from someone with their “credentials “and sometimes covertly dimish a Rabbis perspective . This ” training” and “education” is from a secular standpoint and has no nexus to frumkite . I’ve been married for 2 decades and haven’t visited these so called professionals once, I’m not an ATM machine and uninterested in paying someone else’s mortgage. If someone from is interested in getting the degree for insurance purposes for their clients etc. No problem with that, only that if they are good at what they… Read more »
Best rabbi in Pittsburgh
I am.dealing with an abusive spouse and have not found one rav in CH or anywhere who has been of help.
They may have listened to my pleas, but are untrained to deal with master manipulators and have not been helpful.
If anyone has had luck with a rav that is knowledgeable and helpful,please post name and contact info.
Many rabbis will tell the victim to appease the abuser and forgive him for his behavior and things may change.
100 %!
Agree with above comment.
Twersky says in a clip (from.kinus)that rabbis are not skilled in abuse and couples with issues of abuse should go to professionals only not rabbis!
Worth finding the whole clip.
In the case of abuse, unless you are consulting with Rabbi Abraham Twersky, this is just beyond the average Rav’s skillset. No shame in that – you wouldn’t have him do your taxes either ! An abuser is a master manipulater that lives a double life and fools everyone – sometimes even his kids. My sister’s ex fooled all of our local Rabbis (and also a true Talmud Chacham) with his white shirt, long beard, and early morning minyan attendance. Even a “highly trained therapist” who doesn’t specialize in abuse can be fooled by these excellent actors (and sometimes actresses)… Read more »