May 6, 2009
Rabbi Klein Rips Messianics

U.S. halachic authority Rabbi Menashe Klein has denounced the messianic group within Chabad in a new book. "This sect of crazies, which falsify the Torah and our sages words..." he called them.

Rabbi Menashe Klein, a U.S. halachic authority known for his strict rulings, has denounced the messianic group within Chabad in a new book.

In his 17th volume of Mishne Halachos, Klein names people who believe the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson, is still alive, as "Apikoras."

The spiritual leader of the Ungar community head of the Bais Shearim Yeshiva in Brooklyn, Klein knew the Rebbe before he assumed leadership of the Lubavitch movement.

"This sect of crazies, which falsify the Torah and our sages' words, to say the Moshiach is dead but is really alive... these are things against our holy Torah."

His sharp words are an answer to a messianic booklet, which is not identified by name.

Klein continues to write: "Whoever can, should as soon as possible, silence and stop the proclamations after or before the prayers 'Yechi... King Moshiach' which is a disgrace to the Rebbe OBM."

He ended his attack with a plea: "My intentions are holy - not to destroy the big building the Rebbe OBM built for over 50 years.. may he be an advocate for us and for all the Jewish people, especially his students and Chasidim."



Most Read Most Comments












Bookmark and Share
Opinions and Comments
1
Yosef Shidler
Klein continues to write: "Whoever can, should as soon as possible silence and stop the proclamations after or before the prayers 'Yechi etc. King Moshiach' which is a disgrace to the Rebbe OBM."

Not to get in to the whole issue wrong or right... But I leave an open question to Rabbi Klein:

HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THIS (Do you know better then the Rebbe?):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXDVbw9CM6c
(5/6/2009 2:25:29 AM)
2
he speaks the truth
but isn't it sick that Chabad has to put up with the shame because some sick, twisted, deranged individuals wander around with flags, pins, & other yechi adornments & force their insanity on the rest of us? I haven't been in 770 in years because of the lunacy that goes on there every day. Once again, I have to hold Aguch responsible for not pulling the rug out from under their feet.

When will Aguch do what they are legally & morally supposed to do?

(5/6/2009 2:29:22 AM)
3
a proud meshichist
what a stira for meshichistim
come on! have some respect! i personally am a meshichist, and a proud one, but i dont go screaming at ppl who dont think the way i do.
(5/6/2009 3:23:00 AM)
4
nonotheless
please speak respectfully for mehsichistim and non.
(5/6/2009 3:24:15 AM)
5
to #1
symple it was BEFORE gimel tamuz
period.
(5/6/2009 4:22:08 AM)
6
The Rebbe as Mosiach
The Rebbe said during a sicha Shavous 1950 that according to the Zohar someone who is no longer live can be mosiach. In the Zohar it says that before the coming of Mosiach Tzadikim will be resurrected and one of them can be Moshiach. At that time he was refering to those who were asking how can the Rebbe say that the previous Rebbe can be Moshiach if he is no longer here physically and the Rebbe answered that before Moshiach there will be tchias hamesim for Tzadikim and therefore the previous Rebbe can be Moshiach. So the same holds true for the Rebbe. Also regarding saying Yechi the Rebbe once said that by saying Yechi it gives chayus to a tzadik that has passed away to have him interced for us above. So even though convential judiasim seems to think that Chaba is wrong in their thoughts and actions Kabbala and the Rebbe dictate otherwise. Also in the sich about Yechi teh Rebbe also mentioned that Rav Yehuda Hanosi used to come and make kiddush for his family on shabbos. So there are many things that we do not understand but that does not make things necesarily wrong, unjewish or apikorsos. The only problem that I have with the vocal people is that the Rebbe said that our mission is to bring Mosiach but in a way that is acceptable and does not put people of by the way it is presented. I always tell people let's just bring Mosiach and when he is here we will see who it is. By annoying people and having arguments we are definitely not carrying out the Rebbe's wishes and we are not bringing Mosiach
(5/6/2009 4:37:43 AM)
7
Oh, if he says to stop, thats it I"m stopping!!!
lol
(5/6/2009 4:41:37 AM)
8
to #7
typical tipish
(5/6/2009 5:09:06 AM)
9
about time... and to #6
what you say is all good and kosher until you incorporate it in day to day yidishkiet (making part of teffilah, krias hatorah etc,) then it leads to apikores as teh rav paskened.
(5/6/2009 5:12:08 AM)
10
to #6
please tell me when teh rebbe said that saying yechi gives chayos to a tzadik that passes away. please tell me.
(5/6/2009 5:19:05 AM)
11
please understand
If it is from the chayim or if it is from the maisim
BUT YOU CAN NOT MIX BOTH.
You cant say well the rebbe was moshiach vadai before gimel Tamuz (min hachayim) and then moashiach Vadai after gimel tamuz (min hamaysim)
its EITHER......
this is very poshut..
(5/6/2009 5:25:01 AM)
12
Zohar Spin
To #6

Where does it say that Tzaddikim will arise before Tchiyass hameyssim? In the same place (Breishis 139) where it says all this will be before 5408? Or does it say this elsewhere also?
(5/6/2009 5:38:52 AM)
13
RESPECT
I RESPECT THE GAON, TO BE HONEST IM SO CALLED FROM THE MASICHASIT CAMP I WILL TONE DOWN. I BELEIVE THE REBBE WAS A PERSONAL FRINED WITH THE ROV.
(5/6/2009 5:41:43 AM)
14
IMPORTANT
The Rebbe is Moshiach and alive NOT because it says so in Halacha or cuz any "poisek" says so!!!

Rather, because THAT'S WHAT THE REBBE SAYS!!!

We, as his Chassidim must adhare to what THE REBBE says, and to take any garbage from what any "godol" may think!!!
If you respect HIS word over THE REBBE'S word - then maybe become this guys Chosid, and leave lubavitch...

Moshaich Now!
(5/6/2009 5:43:54 AM)
15
please
please pleaseeeeeeeeeee
now is the sefira if you havent noticed
i will be happpy if one of you listen to my advice: STOP FIGHTING! 24,000 students of rabbi akiva were killed BECAUSE they were fighting! and their teacher, rabi akiva, was the epitome of veahavta lereacha kamocha, he taught that! how could it be? because each thought that HIS way of this is te correct way.
MESHICHIST or NOT MESHICHIST, we are all klal yisroel. and we have to love each other just like brothers and sisters, because we are! 'acheinu kol beis yisroel'!
please, if you want to fight, at least leave it till after the sefira
to COLLIVE: why did you post this in the sefira if it only brings controversy? dont you know that now is the sefira?
(5/6/2009 5:46:00 AM)
16
"Changer of Haloches" is playing with fire
This "Ha-Kuten" is calling the Rebbe and Apikores!

The Rebbe said that the Friedeker Rebbe is ALIVE after Yud Shvat and the Rebbe said that the Friedeker Rebbe remains Moshiach after Yud Shvat.

Uch Un Vey to this "Ha-Kuten"

Ich Bin Em Nit Mekane
(5/6/2009 5:50:24 AM)
17
Mamash An Am Haaretz Gomur
He just shows his am haratzus

In Lubavitch, every Cheder Yingel knows the Rebbe's Sichos where he shows that all of the "Ha-Kuten"' taanos, in this "tshuva" is shtusim vehavolim.

Listen to all the Audio Sichos and Video Sichos where the Rebbe Kocht Zich that the Freideker Rebbe is still alive, in connection with the parsha of the seforim and Barry gurrary.
(5/6/2009 5:57:04 AM)
18
Yosef Shidler Response to #5
#5 so let me get this straight, after gimmel tammuz everything stops?Why? For the very simple reason that the rebbe's will no longer applies or it changed....

Man if you can seriously talk like this you really need to learn basic chassidus 101 like tanya and the like. Or move to Boro Park were the rebbes are seriously disposable. For some stange reason all the horas and ideas that were before gimmel tammuz we still do cause that is what the rebbe showed us. 4,000 shluchim stand strong on shlichus and many sent by the rebbe long before 3 tammuz.. Are you saying that gimmel tammuz stops it all! If it has not stoppped anything else who is to say that what the rebbe encourage during those years, as seen on the youtube video above, does not apply now. AGAIN as I mentioned above I am not touching the issue of moshiach or not as I believe that is a lot more HERGESH then fact but please dont try to deny facts. Everything else the rebbe said we still follow but certain things that you pick and choose we can deny happen or say that it is after gimmel. Dont pick and choose. If you were in the video before 3 tammuz and you stood by the rebbe you know and can still see that the rebbe encouaged people to sing those words. RIGHT OR WRONG IS ANOTHER CONVERSATION. But that did happen and like it or not the Rebbe encouraged it.
(5/6/2009 6:04:38 AM)
19
to 16 and 17
so then why did the rebbe say kadish on yud shvat
please a little saichel
(5/6/2009 6:10:22 AM)
20
to #16
how can you even write teh first line that you did
this shows the you are fargrebet.
please have some respect for rav klein and the rebbe
(5/6/2009 6:11:49 AM)
21
to #18
To Mr. Shildler
What are you ranting about. You asked a question in regards to yechi, and I answered that yes after gimel tamuz it is very questionable to say yechi after Davening.

Now what are you on about if everything should stop – of course not. The discussion was about saying yechi not stopping everything.
(5/6/2009 6:15:56 AM)
22
no name
After reading some of the comments it appears to me quite clearly that will do what they want even if its against dass Torah. I feel that there is a great lack of learning and understanding to stubbornly hold onto something that is shaky at best. Moreover who's to say that we understand what the Rebbe meant. I Haven t heard anything plausible yet
(5/6/2009 6:19:36 AM)
23
Bring T Moshiach
Thank You Rabbi Klien For Bringing Moshiach Sooner
Enough Moshiach Sheker Enough this is Distroing Chabad And the Rebbis Name R"L
(5/6/2009 6:30:13 AM)
24
if klein denies the facts, read this to him
http://www.moshiach.net/count.htm
(5/6/2009 6:44:02 AM)
25
to 19
the rebbe means what he says and says what he means! we may not understand his ACTIONS , and thats not our bissunes.
(5/6/2009 6:46:58 AM)
26
Shidler to #21
then please explain your first statment:

symple it was BEFORE gimel tamuz!!!! What difference did gimel tamuz make in that reagard.
(5/6/2009 6:53:57 AM)
27
heres more raye's
The mezritcher maggid said that moshiach would come either from his older or younger talmidim, and therefore ,the oldest and youngest talmidim Reb Nochum Chernobler and the alter rebbe made a shidduch bettween thier granchildren. these family made 2 more shidduchim between thier great and great-great grandchildren . the frierdiker rebbe indicated that the rebbe was this descendant, since he was like the frierdiker rebbe's son, who was officaly the only descendant from all three of these shidduchim.
(5/6/2009 6:56:53 AM)
28
PROOF OF GEULA
this goes to prove, the prediction, "CHERFU IKVOS MESHICHECHA" as interpredted by chasidus,

that davka big ppl w long white beards will be the ones to fight MOSHIACH!
(5/6/2009 7:40:51 AM)
29
Thank You Rabbi Klien
I would like to point out a BIG problem in Lubavitch, we do not take Daas Torah seriously, and we aught to.
With in the Rebbes Sichos you can prove any side, therefor the safest thing would be, to not make any new Avoda without popper guidance from the Rebbe. Also history will show you, any time people pointed with finger at an individual claiming him to be Moshiach, cotatstrophy struck Klal Yisroel. Also, there is no Ikar in the Rambam to point fingers at an individual nor know who it is. Based on this, a normal person should conclude that normalcy should prevail, and not make new Derachim in Chabad.
(5/6/2009 7:43:26 AM)
30
its a fine line
first of all the rebbe said in hayom yom that u can say harachaman hu yivarech on the friediker rebbe in bentching yechi does give chayus to the rebbe

and i dont say the yechi but maybe i will begin now but this flag business and all is disgraceful but this death of the rebbe is nonesense and he is not walking the streets and u can give chayos to the rebbe mostly through tzetlach and learning koveia ittim and mivtzayim slogans dont help much but i will say yechi
moshiach or not is not the issue

the fact that people beileve that the gashmiyus of the rebbe is still alive is playing around with fire and is not in touch with reality and cannot be trusted for halacha

this is a complicated story

hes messing around and probably didnt confer
(5/6/2009 7:52:25 AM)
31
Alive does not mean moshiach!
Tzadikim are called bchayim throughout sifrei kabalah and even the gemara. But this is a ruchniusdike thing. It doesn't mean that all the halachos of meisim don't apply. Don't we all say dovid melech yisroel chai vkayum? Surely the rav doesn't have a problem with that. In the SAME way the Rebbe is chai vekayum. The inyan of moshiach is entirely seperate. Seems like a pretty silly psak. Don't take it so seriously.
(5/6/2009 7:55:08 AM)
32
to 26
again you can not have it both ways - you cant say the rebbe was moshiach vadai before gimul tamuz and then after the gimel tamuz also say moshiach vadai.
(5/6/2009 7:59:06 AM)
33
to #29
you wrote
"first of all the rebbe said in hayom yom that u can say harachaman hu yivarech on the friediker rebbe in bentching yechi does give chayus to the rebbe"

WHAAT?
how but how can you compare saying harachaman hu YEVORECH
and to say YECHI ... Melech hamoshaich L'olom VOED

how can you compare both
thye problem stems with the melech hamoshiach FOREVER
(5/6/2009 8:16:36 AM)
34
to #30
oh are you so mistaken

they belive that the ONLY way you can say that th erebb eis moshiach if he is chai vekayam mamash .

otherwise they claim it is liek xtianity.

this was written in a letter years ago in Israel.

boy you have no clue
(5/6/2009 8:18:44 AM)
35
so?
to 31
whats the difference? b4 and after, i and all meshichistim believe that the rebbe is moshiach
(5/6/2009 8:41:54 AM)
36
#15
You say it is the Sefira and this should not be posted.... I would like to offer a different perspective. Perhaps because it is the SEfira, this SHOULD be posted, and perhaps all this "Yechi" business is bringing troubles to the Rebbe alev haShalom. We know the Rebbe does not rest, he appears in dreams and helps many many people. But that does not mean we have to "Yechi HaMelech" because that is contrary to Torah. The Rebbe may not want this to be occurring, and Rabbi Klein is doing us all a favour by publicizing this. It is not arguing against each other, it is out of love for each other that we try to help each other. Perhaps I am wrong, but perhaps Rabbi Klein is right.
(5/6/2009 8:49:15 AM)
37
# 35
How could Rabbi Klein be right when the Gemoroh clealry says not like him.

"and if he is from the dead (perhaps) like Daniel the beloved one".

In the recent debacle with Lipa it became clear that many of these Rabbonim have no idea what this world is about, they are pushed to write and say things by their pushers and on and on.

I don't know this fellow and as far as Moshiach goes we follow OUR teacher, the Rebbe. We take an example from the way our Rebbe spoke about the Frierdikeh Rebbe and we proudly believe in this .

This is how a Chabadnik should believe bepinimius nafsho.

as far as reacing out to the public as long as the intentions are sincere ailu veailu divre Elokim Chaim. Every Chabad Chossid is doing whatever he can to prepare the world lesaken hooilom bemalchus shin daled yud
(5/6/2009 9:06:11 AM)
38
Chabad
Chabad Is Not A Christon Riligon Thank You Rabbi Klein
Hatzloche Robba !!!
(5/6/2009 9:27:51 AM)
39
you didn' post my reply...
number 10 asked:
please tell me when teh rebbe said that saying yechi gives chayos to a tzadik that passes away. please tell me.

see Sicha of Beis Nissan 5748. Crystal clear.
(5/6/2009 9:29:51 AM)
40
bringing moshiach
It is olrady 2009 Tuv Shin Samoch Ches how much lorger will thin non sence go on Wake up !!! Olrady Pleeeease No More............


(5/6/2009 10:02:21 AM)
41
to #37
please #37 read what the rav wrote... you cant mix both you just cant.

btw do you know there was a book published by nshai chabad before gimul tamuz init states why the rebbe is moshiach. and then it asks why cant we say the holy rebbes or tzadikim after previous generation why cant they be moshiach. and it specifically states that the reason being is because the passed away.

so,,, if before gimul tamuz we said that the rebbe is moshiach vadai - how can we now say he is moshiach vadai after gimul tamuz?
like the gemara says
it could either or either (not from both)

anyways we should increase in our torah and mitzvahs especially Bain Adam lachaveiro
(5/6/2009 10:09:54 AM)
42
Reb Menashe Hakoton
We are pondering over the words of somebody who truly did not hold a great deal of the Rebbe himself, either. He is just being very diplomatic and does not want to be counter-productive.
He would have called the Rebbe those same names as well, when the Rebbe said on his father-in-law, that there is no Yerushah since he is B'Chaim. And of course if he would want to comment on the Sichos of the last two years he would not use eidele wording either.
The fact is that every point he tries to prove is far from solid; in fact it's a bit embarassing.
(5/6/2009 10:28:29 AM)
43
Kollel for Life
No, it doesn't matter what great Rabbonim say. (Heck, we don't even listen to our own rabbonim, so why should we care what world renown poskim say).

Nothing can change our beliefs, because we know better. (Besides, what do these guys know anyway - a little niglah?! Some halacha?! We never like those subjects anyway - not enough creative thinking like nistar).

We are smarter than everyone else in klal yisroel. (Afterall, Chabad means we are intellectually superior - we are taught in chassidus that black can be white, down can be up and all is not as it seems).

Even if Moshe Rabbanu would come and tell us we are wrong...well, how much Chassidus, ma'amorim and sichos has he learned in those 40 days?! (Whenever we can't answer "al pi niglah", we can supply an answer "al pi nistar").

Even if HKB"H Himself would proclaim that we are wrong, big deal...Torah lav b'shamayim! (See, we are brilliant and know how to use the one liners we remember from our Yeshiva days).

Indeed, if by some miracle the Rebbe should tell us all that we are totally wrong... someone would write a sefer called, "Kivan sh'higid - shuv anyno chozer u'magid" (you can't take back what you said - no "do overs").

We are always right. Everyone else is always wrong. It is so simple. Isn't this a wonderful world we created in our own minds??!

This disease was always there, even before Gimmel Tam'uz, but now it has become uncontrollable.

The insane are running the asylum (a.k.a. 770) saying that everyone on the outside is crazy.

Moran v'Rabbonon (e.g. Rav Shach zt"l) predicted that Chabad will self-destruct - Watch as it happens.
(5/6/2009 10:34:51 AM)
44
nit an anuv
he didnt write "hakutun" b-cause he thinks he's an anav (which he's certainly not) but b-cause "klein" is "kutun" from hebrew to yiddish. and besides, the rebbes alive in his teachings!
(5/6/2009 10:50:20 AM)
45
to number 43
i was intrested untill th elast line yad hachasidim al hoelyona.
anyways - let us c"v not agree with the last line
(5/6/2009 10:58:45 AM)
46
Learn from the Rebbe
If we are honest, we will see that the Rebbe had the utmost respect for ALL Rabonim who came to see him or who wrote to him. Harav M Klein is a world renown Posek. If we read is Teshuvah, we will see that what he says makes a lot of sense with plenty of sources from Torah. It is only because of his admiration for the Rebbe and his work over the decades that he speaks out to preserve the Rebbe's good name. Az es tut vei, shreit men!!! I admire his courage and commitment that despite his old age, he stands up for what is just and correct. Rabbi Klein, on behalf of all of us who care about the Rebbe's legacy and the good name of Lubavitch - KOL HAKAVOD
(5/6/2009 11:07:54 AM)
47
OHEL
Did you lovers of menashe Klien read what he wrote???

He said you are not allowed to go to the Ohel !!!!!!!

All those that scream Mashiach yes or no READ His article..

It's againt all lubavitchers. Which ever way you do. He wants you all to make a new rebbe!!!
Now tell me is he your freind?????
(5/6/2009 11:44:29 AM)
48
T0 29
"there is no Ikar in the Rambam to point fingers at an individual nor know who it is"
While there may not be an ikur, there is however definitely a inyan to know who he is. Why else would the Rambam write the criterias?
(5/6/2009 11:45:43 AM)
49
No comment
(5/6/2009 11:48:52 AM)
50
to 32
Why not?
We believe the Rebbe's Moshiach because he told us so! Not (only) based on the criteria's of the Rambam.
(5/6/2009 11:49:25 AM)
51
To 43
Which Kolel has wi-fi?
Also, its good you showed your true colors in your last sentence.
(5/6/2009 11:59:43 AM)
52
a chossid listens to HIS Rebbe
the only thing this fellow is saying is that you shouldn't say the person who is dead is actually alive begashmius something that however you want to understand it, the Rebbe said differently. The Rebbe said the Frierdikeh Rebbe is living here in this world begashmius. But that's not the point.

the Rabbi makes it very clear from the Abarnanel that you actually can believe that a passed away Tzadik can come back and be moshiach.

and who is to say that you can't apply Yakov loi mais to the Rebbe. This fellow gives a casual - its not shayech here and that's it???

I say if the Torah tells us that by Yakov loi mais kipshuto it is perhaps shayech by other tzadikim, just like the Rebbe said regarding the Frierdikeh Rebbe.

in the end -- a chossid believes and follows what his Rebbe teaches him and our directives are very clear.

(5/6/2009 12:03:32 PM)
53
To 46
"If we are honest, we will see that the Rebbe had the utmost respect for ALL Rabonim who came to see him or who wrote to him."
True, but the Rebbe never changed his opinion to accommodate the p'sak of some Rov!
(5/6/2009 12:04:25 PM)
54
Shidler
keep these articles coming everyday and this site will skyrocket... Its the HOT topic!!!!
(5/6/2009 12:13:46 PM)
55
Kollel For Life
Are you chabad? because by your statements it reeaallyy doesnt seem like it...!!!1
(5/6/2009 12:29:38 PM)
56
YOU MISUNDERSTOOD?
This Rabbis ruled against people who believe that the Rebbe is alive NOW! He has nothing against people believing the Rebbe to be Moshiach (before Gimmel Tammuz, or through Techias Hamiasim etc.), but the people who believe the Rebbe himself is alive B'Guf Gashmi and that he still gives out dollars every sunday or kos shel brocha-this is who Rabbi Klein refers to as an apikores.
(5/6/2009 12:48:37 PM)
57
WE were never NISPOEL
CHABAD ALWAYS ATTRACTED JEALOUSLY

OR GREAT PPL WHO WRE MISGUIDED BY THERE CLOSE CIRCLE (THE VILNA GAON)
(5/6/2009 12:49:17 PM)
58
Kollel for Life
To #55:

NEWS FLASH!!

There are a few Jews on this planet that are not Chabad. I hope this doesn't destroy the fantasy you live in.
(5/6/2009 12:55:32 PM)
59
Honest Question
When the Rebbe reffered to the Freidiker Rebbe as alive, did he mean that the Freidiker Rebbe was still saying maamarim, or giving out kos shel brocho? I.e.
Even if the Rebbe was still alive- HE would be the one giving out dollars-he would not have other people doing it for him. So why do people persist in ACTING like the Rebbe? (I believe) It is these self appointed gabboim that Rabbi Klein is reffering to.
(5/6/2009 12:58:35 PM)
60
coward
instead of sitting and learning the REBBE's sichos you're learning from another Rebbe?! Listen up there is only ONE Rosh Bnei Yisroel. You should be ashamed of yourselveS.
(5/6/2009 1:08:51 PM)
61
to top it off
i made it 60 comments
(5/6/2009 1:09:19 PM)
62
To 41
See comment 50
(5/6/2009 1:12:00 PM)
63
TO ALL WHO THINK NO ONE SHOULD SAY YECHI AFTER 3Tamuz:
Did you learn or even read the Sicha of 2 Nissan 5748?
There the Rebbe says that saying Yechi HaMelech is poel "HAKITZU vRANENU SHOCHNEI OFOR the frierdiker rebbe, -and- HAKITZU vRANENU DOVID MALKA MESHICHA!!!
(trans. it (yechi hamelech) causes that those that DWELL IN THE DUST shall ARISE and sing, (that is) the Previous Rebbe; and King Moshiach shall arise and sing)

So what don't you understand?

There's not a reason not to say Yechi EVEN after Gimmel Tammuz - according to what THE REBBE HAD STATED.
(5/6/2009 1:30:14 PM)
64
DOES ANYONE HERE EVEN KNOW WHAT THE REBE HIMSELF HAD STATED?
REGARDING YECHI?

LEARN THE SICHA OF BEIS NISSAN AND STOP DISMISSING ALL THOSE THAT SAY THE PROCLOMATION OF YECHI AS "CRAZY"...

YOUR PLAYING WITH FIRE
(5/6/2009 1:36:59 PM)
65
We're supposed to say yechi
the rebbe's talk 2 nissan 1988
(5/6/2009 1:38:02 PM)
66
Destroy him!
After reading this post this morning, I told my wife, that the first things the mishichist party will do is make this guy in to a nothing. If hes a nothing then they are something.
They do this to fekllow mishichistim who thatnk g-d find there way back to Chabad, they say "him??? Hes a nobody etc..."
Yesterday this guy was the biggest thing, the second somebody does not agree with them, they make him in to the biggest bigot (just like the liberals do to all that don't agree with them, they destroy their life).
Imagine if the rabbi would have said something supporting them, the noise they would make etc... V'dal.

It's been 15 years of mishichistim, what good have they done? Nothing!
They did not go out there and build and grow, they only tried to steal and take from others.

They play very well the Alinsky's Rules for Radicals
They love rule 12 the most...
Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it." Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions. (This is cruel, but very effective. Direct, personalized criticism and ridicule works.)
(5/6/2009 2:01:45 PM)
67
Big chidush! (Not)
Those that hold that the Rebbe is chai vakayum bguf gashmi mamosh are not apikorsim. They are shotim. They are potur from Torah and Mitzvos so to give them the title apikorsim is simply innacurate.
(5/6/2009 2:18:52 PM)
68
The Rebbe is a man of Shulchan Aruch
The Rebbe was a man of the book/Shulchan Aruch.

I am his Chassid because of that.

The Halacha says what it says, and the Rebbe never went against Halacha/Shulchan Aruch.
Since the mishichistim HAVE to make scents of everything, they end up making mistakes.
When you say thinks like...
"I know the Rambam or Shulchan Aruch says one thing, but if you learn the Sicho of.... Then you will see what the Rebbe says etc... and i only follow the Rebbe".

WHO ARE YOU MAKING FUN OF, G-D FORBID THE REBBE OR YOURSELVES? SHAME ON YOU MISHICHISTIM.
(5/6/2009 2:19:04 PM)
69
Give me back My Rebbe!
It's Tafka the mishichistim who are the biggest disbelievers.
If you think about it....
The Rebbe (in their eyes) is only great because he's like this and like that etc...
And if the Rebbe is not like this or that, then he's not good enough for you?? If the Rebbe is not Moshiach, he's not (g-d forbid) worthy to be YOUR Rebbe?
WHO DO YOU THINK YOU PEOPLE ARE?
YOU TELLING THE REBBE WHAT TO DO?

If you want to know if something is right, just look at the results. After 15 years we all can see with our very eyes what has become (the machlokes and all...a generation ruined). As it say "one mitzva brings to another mitzva and one sin bring to another sin" etc... V'dal (we all see what has become).
Bottom line: the mishichistim are miserable, angry, jealous and hateful people. It's just a pity that they are using a good righteous Yid, a tzaddik, who never did anything wrong, like the Rebbe to further their Agenda.

Rabbi Klein is just saying it as it is, as the Shulchan Aruch (our rule book, our guide) says it and the Rebbe was a Aish Shulchan Aruch.

Those who are trying (as expected) to make small of Rabbi Klien, let me remind you that hundreds of our young men have gone (and will g-d willing go) to get tested for Semicha by him.
(5/6/2009 2:32:26 PM)
70
To #68
1. Regarding the Rebbe, the Rebbe tells us that for us we have the Rebbe "un hecher far dem iz far unz nita" - and there is non higher then that for us. Sounds radical? Well, thats what the Rebbe said.

2. The story of the Arizal and his talmidim Erev Shabbos, the Rebbe learns out from that the when a Rebbe says something you listen. Not go and see if it matches what the Shulchan Aruch says. That is NOT a Chossid.
(5/6/2009 2:36:57 PM)
71
A House Divided
The "Messianist" (or "Moshichists") as they call themselves, are a fringe group of fanatics within Lubavitch. The Messianist ringleaders created this aberrant movement by using some of the same tactics employed by many of the well known tyrants of history. The same dynamics of group psychology that I studied in college are at play here. Fanaticism of all kinds, but especially religious fanaticism, all share the same ugly face of intolerance, rigidity, irrationality, hatred and rage. The difference here is that this fanatic movement has as its central figure, our beloved Lubavitcher Rebbe (zt"l), who was a great giant of Torah righteousness and truth. Herein lies the real tragedy of this illegitimate movement within Lubavitch - that it misrepresents the Rebbe and threatens to destroy everythinghe built.

It all began when the unthinkable occurred. After a long and protracted illness the Rebbe finally went the way of all flesh, leaving us, his kinderlach, in a state of helplessness, shock and grief. For over forty years the world had watched this great tzadik in amazement as he accomplished what seemed to be superhuman feats. His influence permeated both the entire Jewish and non-Jewish world. I personally lived within blocks of the Rebbe for over a decade and can say unequivocally that this was the most formative decade of my life. As a baalas teshuvah who had been educated to believe in secular moral relitivism, it was only the Rebbe who could have brought me closer to Hashem and His Torah. The Rebbe made Moshiach a palpable reality. The Rebbe could make us all practically see, feel, smell, and taste Moshiach.This is why we all felt that if Moshiach were imminent, as the Rebbe promised us he was, then the Rebbe must have been the Moshiach himself. After all, we asked, who else could it be?

This is the background from which this false Messianic movement sprung.The Messianic ringleaders wasted little time after the Rebbe's demise and immediately went to work. They created a new ideology using distortions and misrepresentations of the Rebbe's discourses and were able to convince a large portion of the masses that the Rebbe would still be revealed as the Moshiach even after his death. I vividly recall sitting in 770 and listening to the Messianic lectures. They told the people not to cry. They actually said it was a sin to cry since it showed lack of faith. I paid no heed to their words as I uncontrollably cried bitter tears from the depth of my broken heart. The tearless crowd gave me cold stares as their Messianic teachers told them that people like myself didn't really believe. The dynamics of group psychology were being cleverly manipulated by the Messianic ringleaders who told their legions that they were actually spiritually superior to people like me. The Messianist ringleaders played upon the vulnerability of the masses' emotions. They placated the crowd into a mindless stupor and told them they had nothing to be saddened about because the Rebbe was really here. They called in respected rabbis and teachers and quoted the Rebbe's discourses repeatedly until a large portion of the masses became brainwashed.They told the people what they wanted to hear. And those who dared to disagree or argue with their logic were ostracized from the group. The message became clear - you believe like us or you are not part of the group and are thereby not worthy of our love and friendship. The weaker ones succumbed. They became intimidated psychologically and would choose not to speak out. No one wants to be ostracized. They even went so far as to tell the people that if one did not believe that the Rebbe was still Moshiach after his death, then one was a non-believer in the entire concept of Moshiach altogether and was going against the Rebbe.

This aberrant movement began to gain steam very quickly. The Messianic ringleaders made certain that every single class was dedicated to propagating their new Messianic ideology. The baalei teshuvah became their most vulnerable victims. As a baalas teshuvah I can assert that most of my peers are insufferably naive when it comes to their teachers. Baalei teshuvah come to Yiddishkeit with the openness of purity of children and most of us believe our teachers are holy, righteous and all-knowing. We basically believe everything they tell us and do not believe that we know enough Torah to argue against them.I am lucky since I was born with a healthy cynicism and an acute sense of reality. These characteristics, along with having had the right teachers, thank G-d, saved me from becoming part of the Messianic cult.

Fanaticism is like a progressive illness of the spirit that poisons one's soul. The Messianic movement has grown in its intensity and its ferocity with time. I have watched formerly nice people whom I had known for years become mean, bitter and vicious before my eyes. I do not blame them but rather the heads of the false "leaders" of the Messianists who have a hidden agenda. These ringleaders use their legions to do their dirty work. This includes actual physical intimidation and harassment of the "non-believers" who express contrary opinions. The Messianists have created a one-sided war and they are the only ones who are fighting.

The hidden agenda of the Messianic ringleaders is one of gaining as much power as possible. They are not content with just having power over their followers, but they are also interested in gaining control over institutions and the structure of Lubavitch itself. They have attempted to encroach their power over every facet of the educational system in CrownHeights and in many cases have been successful. Some yeshivot are more subject to their influence than others, but they have to some extent made their new ideology a part of the curriculum in all of them. This has proven to be a major problem for many of the children who are becoming confused and alienated from Yiddishkeit in greater numbers than ever before. This has also become a major factor in dividing the community as never before with bitter feuds between and even within families.

Furthermore, the Messianic ringleaders have attempted to replace the structure of Lubavitch, as was originally set up by the Rebbe, with a new structure while putting themselves at the helm. They have replicated the key institutions of Lubavitch and have remade them in their own image. All of this has been done in the name of the Rebbe and the bringing of Moshiach.These fake Chassidim would never have dared to even think of attempting such perfidy if the Rebbe were alive today!

All of this is being done by them while they demonize the very people the Rebbe appointed to head these institutions. They assert that these individuals, whom the Rebbe himself hand picked as the leaders of Lubavitch, are actually evil and corrupt. Therefore, they must be saying that they (the Messianist leaders) know better than the Rebbe did about who should run Lubavitch! Apparently, they believe the Rebbe did not really know what he was doing when he chose the people to head up these institutions since he didn't pick the Messianic ringleaders! And herein lies the real root of the entire problems with these Messianic ringleaders. Herein lies the root of all their motivations- JEALOUSLY! Just look in the beginning of the Chumash. Why did Kayin kill Hevel? Because he was jealous that Hashem preferred Hevel's sacrifice over Kayin's. In the same vein, these fake Chassidim who have appointed themselves as the leaders of the Messianic movement, are jealous that the Rebbe chose the members of Agudas Chasidei Chabad, and NOT THEM to be the leaders of the Lubavitch empire after his demise. The entire Messianic ideology is nothing more than a smokescreen for their true agenda of lust for power fueled by their own deep jealousy.

Unfortunately, they have divided us bitterly! They have irreparably tainted our reputation around the world! And they are tarnishing the legacy of the greatest tzadik of our century! Yet, understanding all of this, I still believe. I still believe in the triumph of light over darkness. I still believe that the Rebbe will prevail. The Rebbe stated that his true Chassidim are his emissaries and they continue to spread his true message around the globe. Therefore, I still believe that we will live to see our Holy Moshiach speedily in our days!
(5/6/2009 2:37:57 PM)
72
To 48
The Rambam writes the criteria, so you should know that when he comes, you will know that it is him, not like the Christians l'havdil who say you have to believe in him.
Also you missed my point, that pointing fingers at an individual has been catastrophic for Yiddern, and we shouldnt do that now either.
(5/6/2009 2:40:17 PM)
73
EVERYONE READ #43
Everyone, read #43. The world sees and hears what we are doing...yes, it is only a snag, but while we roll in the gutter, we drag with us our self respect and the honor of Lubavitch. As chassidim, we also drag into the gutter...

I am ashamed.

#43 is my wake up call. If anyone wants the flag outside my house, the car decorations, my pin or my yechi yarmalka - you can have it!!!

Read #43 and realize that everyone sees our nakedness.

I am ashamed of myself and it hurts real bad.
(5/6/2009 2:41:50 PM)
74
To 70
So your saying (your saying this not me, you missed my point totally, but that was expected), that (your) rebbe went againts Shulchan Aruch.
You saying that when the Rebbe said the Story of the Arizal, he was telling us not to listen to Shulchan Aruch?

[I can respond to your *^%$ty but first I will wait to see what you have to say].
(5/6/2009 2:44:15 PM)
75
To #74
He was saying that when the Rebbe says something - you don't go checking Shulchan Aruch to see if it makes sense.
Your not responding to MY #$%^&. I simply quoted what the Rebbe said. You want to call that #^&#)* ??? Than you got a problem
(5/6/2009 2:56:52 PM)
76
To 73

Lag Bomer is coming.

There will be a big bon fire.

Let's all burn our paraphanilia - burn the evil from your midst: The flags, yamakas, pins, and all the junk.

I also read 43 and cried and cried and cried.
(5/6/2009 2:57:06 PM)
77
Moshiach Vadai?!!
Please explain to me, those who commented earlier about Moshiach Vadai, how anyone in history so far can have been named moshiach vadai, when the rambam clearly states the criteria for one to be called so - boneh mikdash bimkomo umekabetz nidchei yisrael.
unfortunately, i havent seen the bais hamikdash physically built in yerushalayim yet.
the criteria for bchezkas moshiach i agree has been met, but moshiach vadai?!!! where is the menorah, the shulchan, the aron, etc?
(5/6/2009 3:01:03 PM)
78
To 43
You don't belong on this site. Keep your nose in your gemmara.

You have no right to comment and if you have nothing good to say then don't say it.

I hate you and your kind of people. If you were here I would punch you in the nose.

I read your comment and I want to vomit.
(5/6/2009 3:01:58 PM)
79
to 73
I know the feeling.
Thank g-d I was only 18 when I started asking questions, thank g-d I had the right person to guide me.

Yes, I was a mishichist once, I mean how could I not be, everyone was, if you wasn't then something was wrong with you (you were not a Chossid etc... see 71).
I always joke, that if I was g-d forbid still a mishichist... the shivil.. the dollars... all would be Klaner Zachin (small things).
When I started to (finally) listen (the things I heard were always being said, I just didn't listen), my stomech (b'gashmeyos) was turning over, after all since I was in 5th grade I was a big mishichist (doing what they do best, being load and making everybody else who did not "believe" life miserable (and I WAS THE CHOSSID). And not years latter at age 18 (second year Zal), I was hearing the truth. Could I have been living a lei all these years? What about the people telling the lies?

I asked...
How can I still be a Chossid (when people do or did what they did)?
The answer I received...
"Your not a Chossid of Chassidim, your a Chossid of the Rebbe" "even if 99.99 percent do something (and it ends up wrong), it does not effect you, for you have a Rebbe and you learn what he says and you do what he says, it doesn't matter what everybody else is doing (or thinks).

What to do know?
Find a good Mashpia or friend, open your heart and mind, learn/read (open the books), listen, never stop asking questions.
(5/6/2009 3:03:00 PM)
80
#70 like a parrot
#70 repeating like a parrot.
Going the Bais Moshiach way.
I used to read that garbage to.
No! not what the Rebbe said, what Bias moshiach decided what the Rebbe said/meant.
(5/6/2009 3:07:09 PM)
81
ColLive - you the best!!!
Now the official chabad news blog site. EVERYONE is on this site.

Check out 43 - Even the snags are reading ColLive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(5/6/2009 3:15:59 PM)
82
No name
I think this hold thing is not what the rebbe wants so let's just bring mosiach why fight all it's going to do is hold him back so stop all ready
(5/6/2009 3:19:17 PM)
83
to # 43 and 73
how can you go and mention oiso haish who is amalek and faught against the rebbe,
and then say that if anybody says something it is wrong.
you yourself points fingers and doesnt listen to rabbonim you pick which ruv you want to listen to.!
too many people are writing tipshus.
we are lubavitch and will always be lubavitch no matter what anyone says. because these people hated us before gimmel tamuz and now after!
(5/6/2009 3:30:01 PM)
84
common tactics
I’ve come to realize over the years that the “Mishichisim” relay so much on people being stupid. Always giving misinformation, saying lies as if they are facts of life. If you g-d forbid proofs them wrong they will accuse you of purveying hatred, bigotry and of being stupid, small minded this is a common tactic etc… (Instructive lesson in bully-boy tactics). They will say anything but address the issue. When the going gets thought they all of a sudden become a “seeker of peace”.
(5/6/2009 3:55:19 PM)
85
Dovid Hamelech
(10) "For forty years I quarreled with that generation; and I said, "They are a people of erring hearts, they do not know my ways." (11) So I vowed in my anger that they would not enter my resting place.
(5/6/2009 3:59:26 PM)
86
we must not forget (learn from the past)
When I entered 770 hours after the Kinnus Hashlochim (5767), I felt hurt. But only a little.

I saw many groups of Shluchim Farbragening, with a glimmer of light on their face,
Shluchim of old with Shluchim of young, in a corner of 770 under the porch were the Rebbe sat, I also saw a group of young Bochorim, which their whole purpose was to disturb the people Farbragening. With Screams, loud singing, banging on tables and benches, using any tools (that were available or made available) to make a disturbance.
This bothered, this was disturbing, and therefore it broke my heart.

But I must admit that I felt only a little hurt. First of all because must of the people Farbragening were not paying attention to them. Second, and this is the true reason, we (unfortunately) got used to it.

We got used to, the different in opinions between use, we got used to the disturbances and violence, we got used to the Chutzpa of these young “sheep” agents Our Rabbonim, Mashpeyim and elder Chassidim, and we got used to them undermining, ruining, and destroying anything that does not fit with there understandings.

We were so used to this, that only when the uproar started,
Did I ask a friend that learns in 770, does this happen every day?

What was happening now was defiantly threatening, because such violence I have never seen and could not believe that Bochorim from A Chabad Yeshiva are capable of such violence.

With out getting in to details of how things came this way, because many have seen this for them self’s, and those that haven’t, will (or by now have) read about the events on this Rosh Chodesh Kislov in other medias.
***

After the violence and being thrown out of 770 (Bais Chayenu) I joined a group of Bochorim that were standing out side. I saw a Bocher (who was involved in the violence) crying, he was putting blame to a Bocher standing near him, and this is how it sounded:


“How could they have done this? How could they rip the ‘Yechi’ that the Rebbe saw with his very eyes? Are you normal? This is the Rebbe! You ripped the Rebbe! We are all with out The Rebbe, we must commit suicide for the Rebbe, and we must wear explosive belts for the Rebbe! How can they rip the Rebbe?”

I was shocked; Standing near me was a Shilach from Eretz Israel who seemingly was also in sock. A great fear passed throw me, I thought to my self until today I was sure that we are talking about a few Bochorim that are just missing in there ideologue, just that they are full of young energy and vigor. I thought always in my heart, that with time this actions/believes/ideologue will die down.

But at that moment, when I saw this Bocher crying over the one that “ripped the Rebbe”, then I became pale/shocked/horrified. I was horrified to think, how we really just talking about a ideologue, Maybe we are dealing here with something that can’t be broken, and more so (Aderabe) it will only intensify more and more, just like unfortunately, the ideologue of those enemy’s outside (Chabad) are intensifying no matter how much effort we put to work things out.

This feeling really penetrated my heart when I entered Bais Chayenu 770 a few hours latter to Davven Shachoris. The Shul looked awful/terrible/horrible; it was in such a condition that you had no feeling to enter (a sick feeling).

As I was warped in my prayers, I over heard a conversation between two Bochorim. One said to his friend, Baroch Hashem, “we received an encouraging answer from the Rebbe (Probably from the Igros), and now every thing is alright. This thing shocked me; I asked the Bocher if he can come closer to me, and I ask him explain (the meaning to his conversation).

He told me, after there “defense” last night a few Bochorim thought to them self’s “maybe we did not act properly” so they decided to write to the Rebbe. The letter they entered in Likoti Sichos, and when they opened the Safe, they discovered a Sicho were the Rebbe speaks about going to war on Misirash Nefesh for a Mitzva (Milchmech Mitva al Miserash Nefesh), and that our generation has trials that other generations before use have not had etc…

“Do you understand”, explains the Bocher, “this is what the Rebbe says clearly, this is a trial, but it’s up to use to fight it until Misirash Nefesh”…

Now I could not be silent, I felt that here are sitting a few young guys, which definitely believe with there full faith, that it is upon them to fight until “Meshirash Nefesh” because this is” what the Rebbe told them!”, to fight with who? Anash and Chabad Chassidim!?

This is not exactly the place I want to bring the whole conversation I had with that Bocher, however there are two central points that I heard from him.

The first conclusion that I came to was, We are talking about a group of people that think that they are receiving “direct answers from the Rebbe”, They interpret according to there own opinion/thought, and do what ever they want (were ever they are to gain), because they are the believers in what the Rebbe wants. (They believe that is what the Rebbe wants).

Second, When asked why the Bochorim do what they want (with out asking), The Bocher answers “since in the end of the day, the Bochorim are the ones that maintain 770… The Bochorim Maintain the Tiffelos (prayers) and many more things.
(5/6/2009 4:05:46 PM)
87
to all mishichistim
It wasn't (g-d forbid) the Rebbe that was wrong,
It was you who where wrong about the Rebbe!
(5/6/2009 4:12:45 PM)
88
My friend, our friend #43
43 is a lubavitcher (you know this and I know this),
All you (mishichistim) are trying to do is knock him down, belittle him, so it does not matter what he says (because he's just a sang).
It won't work, We agree with what he has to say (I don't care who he is, it doesn't matter).

So it's true, anybody who says something you don't like, you just assassinate.
(5/6/2009 4:17:11 PM)
89
Rambam
THE LAWS OF IDOL-WORSHIP AND ITS REGULATIONS

Chapter One

1) In the days of Enosh, the people deviated, and the counsel of the wise people degenerated into stupidity. Enosh himself was amongst those who deviated. Their mistaken reasoning was that since God created the skies and spheres as part of nature, and placed them high up [in the skies], and gave them dignity, and that they are servants who serve Him, it would be appropriate to laud, glorify and honor them as well. It is the will of the Almighty to make great and to dignify those who make Him great and honor Him, in the same way that a king wants to honor the servants who serve him - such is the honor of a king. Once this matter was decided upon, they proceeded to build temples to the stars, to bring sacrifices to them, to laud and glorify them verbally and to bow down to them, in order to attain [by these means] the will of the Creator by their opinions, which were evil. This was the core of idolatry, but the knowledgeable worshippers did not deny the existence of God by saying that only such-and-such a star exists. This is what Jeremiah said: "Who would not fear You, King of the nations? For to you it is fitting, for among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms there is none like you. Stupid and senseless are they all - the teaching of their vain idols is but wood!"; that is to say that everyone knows that just God exists, but their mistake and foolishness was to imagine that idolatry was God's will.

2) After some time, prophets of falsehood arose, and said that the Almighty had commanded them to serve such-and-such a star, to bring sacrifices to it, to offer drink sacrifices to it and to build a temple containing its form to it, in order that all people -including women, children and ignoramuses - will be able to bow down to it. Each of these prophets made known a form which he had invented himself, and claimed that it was the form of such-and-such a star which had been made known to him in a prophecy. In this manner, people started to make figures in the temples, under trees and on the tops of mountains and hills, and they congregated and bowed down to them. The prophets said that it was a form which brought good and bad, and that it was fitting to serve and fear it. The prophets said that through this service one will multiply and be successful, and issued instructions concerning what may and may not be done. Other prophets of falsehood began to make themselves known, and said that the star itself, or a sphere or angel, had spoken to them about how to be served, and what may or may not be done. This matter, namely the worship of forms in different manners, the offering of sacrifices to them and the bowing down to them, became propagated throughout the whole world. Owing to the passage of time, the honored and fear-inducing Name was forgotten by all of nature, and was not recognized. Everybody, women and children included, knew only their forms of wood and stone, and the temples of stone, which, from childhood, they had been educated to bow down to, worship and take the name of for oaths. The wise people amongst them, such as the priests, imagined that there is no God, but only the stars and spheres, because of whom they made representative figures. But as for the Creator, there was not a single person who recognized Him, except for various individuals, such as Hanoch, Methuselah, Noah, Shem and Eber. Things continued in this manner until Abraham the Patriarch, supporter of the world, was born.

Remember: . “The end is wedged in the beginning”.
"One sin brings another sin". The shivil, the dollars etc... It didn't just start out like that.... We must look back at the very beginning (thats were it all went wrong-right from the start).
(5/6/2009 4:19:47 PM)
90
Rebbe IS Moshiach NOW
i read the entire teshuva.

Although the Rabbi steers himself into saying Moshiach can only be from the living, and every generation must have its leaders, potential Moshiach, now, and praying at the ohel is not a good thing, and then he suggests some interpretation of his own at the end about the story with Rabbi Yehudah Hanosi coming back even after he passed away and plays it down, (While the Rebbe played it up and a BIG way)


he begins on an entirely different premise.

he starts out saying that, to believe the dead are alive after they passed away is rediculous. Thats how he begins.

He quotes from the Gemoroh AND the Abarbanel and agrees with both sources that Moshiach CAN come from the dead (when they are dead and not quasi alive) and then completely steers away from this like it doesn't exist anymore


so, can the Rebbe come back as Moshiach???
even according to this fellow, absolutely YES.its a mefuresheh Gemorah and that is Rashis first interpretation.

His problem is calling the Rebbe Moshiach in the present tense....

Nu nU he is not a chossid and that's his loss. The Rebbe refered to the previous Rebbe as Moshiach and we do the same. A Talmid follows his teachers derech.
(5/6/2009 4:23:10 PM)
91
what know?
Zelig wrote:
"This is why I don’t really like chabad any more, cuz what people are doing to chabad. We wear once greatly respected and with all of this going on we are just loosing are respect for what we are doing to the world. The people involved in this affirmative action should be taken."

A response:

Being once a Extreme Mishichist my self (in my younger years), until I grow up and started to ask questions (a lot of things in the mishichist way don’t make sense- how could it, if it’s not based on Emes…). I was about 17-18 years of age.
Every question that I asked, I got an answer to. I felt so sick, (B’gashmiyos) in my stomach, finding out how people could take the Rebbes words and twist them up side down, in side out. How people were lying just to push there own agenda etc…
(I will not get too much in to this… Thank g-d as you see I have done Tishuva and fighting the darkness with light).
To get to my main point…
After all the above, I ask “if so called Chassidim could do such a thing, then what’s it all about, why should I be a chossid?
The answer: You are not a Chossid of Chassidim, you are a Chossid of the Rebbe, and you have a question about something (something does not make sense), you open a Safer (of your Rebbe) and learn for your self. i.e. don’t only relay on what people say or do, find out for your self. This means, that even if 99.99% of Chassidim are doing something, it does not make it right, you must find out (through learning on your own) what the Rebbe really held on that issue. (Until today if someone tells me he saw in a Sicho (or any were else, I tell him “show me” “I will learn it my self”…).
The answer above can be applied in being a good Jew in General.

You do what you have to do.
There is obviously one Truth here/Emes (sorry my dear friend there is only one side to the story). You have a head on your shoulder, go learn ask question, make sure the people you ask can back it up, and learn for your self. If you try you will come to the Truth.
To start you off, the Rebbe did not speak in codes/Hints, He was with use for 40 good years, thank g-d, He made every thing from Alef to Tuf (A-Z) very clear (again VERY CLEAR), the Rebbe was like a Teacher teaching his Children, A good teacher knows his Students… All you have to do now IS LEARN.
(5/6/2009 4:26:27 PM)
92
Taking Cheap shots
Character assassination is what some people do when they feel like they can’t win an argument based on the merits. People who’ve made-up their minds but can’t justify their position, rationally, oftentimes resort to attacking the character, credibility or motive of their critics, as opposed to the logic. Just ask conservative talk show host Rush Limbaugh, he’ll tell you that liberals do this all the time.

Truth is of course, that it’s not just liberals who do it, all kinds of people are guilty of resorting to character assassination – liberals, conservatives, religious people, as well as secular folk. Still, that doesn’t make it right. Some people refer to this tactic as the classic “Cheap shot.”
(5/6/2009 4:29:56 PM)
93
Alinsky's Rules for Radicals/mishichistim
RULE 1: "Power is not only what you have, but what the enemy thinks you have." Power is derived from 2 main sources - money and people. "Have-Nots" must build power from flesh and blood. (These are two things of which there is a plentiful supply. Government and corporations always have a difficult time appealing to people, and usually do so almost exclusively with economic arguments.)
RULE 2: "Never go outside the expertise of your people." It results in confusion, fear and retreat. Feeling secure adds to the backbone of anyone. (Organizations under attack wonder why radicals don't address the "real" issues. This is why. They avoid things with which they have no knowledge.)
RULE 3: "Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy." Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.)
RULE 4: "Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules." If the rule is that every letter gets a reply, send 30,000 letters. You can kill them with this because no one can possibly obey all of their own rules. (This is a serious rule. The besieged entity's very credibility and reputation is at stake, because if activists catch it lying or not living up to its commitments, they can continue to chip away at the damage.)
RULE 5: "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon." There is no defense. It's irrational. It's infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions. (Pretty crude, rude and mean, huh? They want to create anger and fear.)
RULE 6: "A good tactic is one your people enjoy." They'll keep doing it without urging and come back to do more. They're doing their thing, and will even suggest better ones. (Radical activists, in this sense, are no different that any other human being. We all avoid "un-fun" activities, and but we revel at and enjoy the ones that work and bring results.)
RULE 7: "A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag." Don't become old news. (Even radical activists get bored. So to keep them excited and involved, organizers are constantly coming up with new tactics.)
RULE 8: "Keep the pressure on. Never let up." Keep trying new things to keep the opposition off balance. As the opposition masters one approach, hit them from the flank with something new. (Attack, attack, attack from all sides, never giving the reeling organization a chance to rest, regroup, recover and re-strategize.)
RULE 9: "The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself." Imagination and ego can dream up many more consequences than any activist. (Perception is reality. Large organizations always prepare a worst-case scenario, something that may be furthest from the activists' minds. The upshot is that the organization will expend enormous time and energy, creating in its own collective mind the direst of conclusions. The possibilities can easily poison the mind and result in demoralization.)
RULE 10: "If you push a negative hard enough, it will push through and become a positive." Violence from the other side can win the public to your side because the public sympathizes with the underdog. (Unions used this tactic. Peaceful [albeit loud] demonstrations during the heyday of unions in the early to mid-20th Century incurred management's wrath, often in the form of violence that eventually brought public sympathy to their side.)
RULE 11: "The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative." Never let the enemy score points because you're caught without a solution to the problem. (Old saw: If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Activist organizations have an agenda, and their strategy is to hold a place at the table, to be given a forum to wield their power. So, they have to have a compromise solution.)
RULE 12: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it." Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions. (This is cruel, but very effective. Direct, personalized criticism and ridicule works.)

(5/6/2009 4:33:56 PM)
94
Honest
Just so you know, there are sforim where it says that all groups of chasidim say that their rebbe was moshiach.
(5/6/2009 4:41:48 PM)
95
Mendel
Did anyone read the whole tshuvah? it says clearly chabad neads a new rebbe. if any anti has a problem, they should find a new rebbe as per the tshuvah. if you dont, that means we are all in this together.
(5/6/2009 4:44:40 PM)
96
THIS IS A MONUMENTAL DOCUMENT FOR MESHICHISTIN
I think what comes out of this is absolutely monumental for the case of the Meshichistin. For a Godol like R' Menashe Klein to expend 5 intense pages to try and dig out a refutation (and very shvach at best) against the meshichistin, he clearly conveys the message that they have given him a run for his life and have heavy reliable sources upon whom to rely. What's also colossal and historic is that although the gemara & the Abarbanel is clear that Moshiach can come min hameisim, nevertheless since 3 Tammuz many antis have always attempted to twist the pshat here and there, and here you have R' Menashe Hakoton who has written HIMSELF on the first page 2nd to last paragraph that indeed that is pshat of the Abarbanel and the gemora that indeed there is room for such a belief that Moshiach CAN indeed come min hameisim! (though kind of warped expression "The intention of the Abarbanel is that it's possible in reality for Moshiach to get up at Techias Hameisim but it's clear that as long as he hasn't he's not Moshhiach"

RABBI KLEIN RIPS NOSI DOREINU
Another observation, COL should have called this article Rabbi Klein Rips Nosi Doreinu as he opposes the view of all of Lubavitch, Left, Right, Center that there is no manhig R"L after 3 Tammuz.

Umisaimim Btoiv:
As the Rebbe said after 10 Shevat 1950
"Just as we believed until now that he will lead us out of Golus so too we will continue with that belief"

and all the gedolim and ketanim can ask shailos but Unu ein lonu ela divrei ben Amram and may it be soon VHu Yigoleinu and then it will be clear to everyone Lkoton Ulgodol.

(5/6/2009 4:55:36 PM)
97
HEAVEN HELP
PERHAPS, SINCE THIS RABBI KLEIN IS SUCH A GREAT PERSON COULD HE EXPLAIN WHAT THE REBBE WAS TALKING ABOUT WHEN HE SAID THE FRIERDIKE REBBE IS HERE "BIGOOF", AND ANYONE WHO SAYS "NISHMOSOI AIDIN" IS CONDEMNING HIM TO SIBERIA." YET THERE IS NO ONE ON THE PLANET EARTH WHO VISITED THE OHEL OF THE FRIERDIKE REBBE MORE THAN THE REBBE? MAYBE THERE ARE A FEW THINGS THE GREAT RABBI KLEIN DOESN'T KNOW.
(5/6/2009 4:56:18 PM)
98
great
All this is whats keeping the issue of Moshiach alive and in the air - Just what the Rebbe wants

Thank you Rabbi Klein - regardless of your feelings, u made hundreds of people think about Moshiach again - graet Zechus
(5/6/2009 4:59:16 PM)
99
Why This Is Happening
They were the non-Jewish elite of Egypt.

Unlike the holy Jewish People, the Erev Rav were immersed in a lifestyle based upon the practice of black magic, divination, exorcism, necromancy, and other spiritual perversions. They feared and despised the Jews -- who were strangers among them and had distanced themselves from the Erev Rav's behavior -- so they influenced Pharoah to murder the Jewish baby boys.

They were Egypt's ruling class, its elite, and they craved one thing only -- power, that is, power to rule over people and control them.

After the Ten Plagues, when G-d Almighty revealed Himself and His Power in the world, the Erev Rav realized they were nothing before G-d, that their time for ruling others was over.

So they begged Moses to admit them to the Jewish nation because, as Jews, they hoped to be closer to the One Who Is All Powerful and continue to wield position over the humble Jewish people.

Moses agreed. But the Zohar states that G-d warned Moses that this was a mistake, that the Erev Rav were insincere and should be pushed away. According to Kabbalah and Chassidus, however, Moses saw that the Erev Rav were the quintessence of evil in the physical world.

By making them Jews, Moses knew he could subjugate their evil and transform them to the realm of holiness, thus bringing Messiah and the Complete Redemption.

G-d warned Moses that the Erev Rav were insincere converts to Judaism. Just as they craved power as the elite of Egypt, so too did they crave power as members of the Jewish people.

G-d, Torah, Jewish Law, fellow Jews, the Land . . . nothing was dear to them except one thing: to grab and maintain power. That is why almost immediately after the Giving of the Torah, the newly-Jewish Erev Rav (the Sages state the Erev Rav were 1.2 million to 4 million in number -- about one-half to more than a million more than the Jews themselves) rebelled against G-d when Moses did not descend from Mount Sinai as expected.

The Erev Rav used their tumah powers to create a vision, an illusion, that Moshe had died and then demanded that Aaron the High Priest create the Golden Calf idol. When Moses' and Aaron's nephew Chur stood up to them, the Erev Rav killed him. Nothing and no one would get in their way.

The souls of the Erev Rav, says the Torah, will exist until the Coming of the Messiah and will animate Jewish bodies in every generation. In our generation -- the last generation before the Messiah's arrival -- the souls of the Erev Rav will predominate and dominate the non-Erev Rav souls of the generation.

Consequently, in every generation, the Erev Rav will promote its agenda of rebellion and subversion of G-d's plans for Torah and the Jewish nation. In fact, if we study Jewish history, we can see clearly that in every generation in which the Jews were pressured physically or spiritually by the Gentiles, it was the Erev Rav of that generation who caved in to the pressure and, may G-d save us, came to help the Gentile oppressors.

The Hellenists of the Chanukah story; the Jewish guests at Achavarosh's feast prior to the Purim miracle; the Jewish Communists who informed on their fellow Jews upholding Torah and mitzvos in Russia; the secular Federation Jews worldwide, who grovel incessantly before Washington and Moscow; the Leftists, who import every repugnant, Gentile practice into the Land; and the Zionists of the morally bankrupt State of Israel . . . these are the Erev Rav today.

More insidious, according to the Vilna Gaon, the Erev Rav will not just be average Jews but the elite of the era, the "head," just as they were in Egypt. That is why, he states in Kol HaTor, they are called "rav" -- like a rav, a rabbi, an elevated individual -- "because they are the heads of the nation in the Exile." Even if they have long beards, black hats, and recite words of Torah as easily as breathing.

And what does the Zohar add? That the Erev Rav are called such because they are the "erev" -- the mixture of evil -- within the "rav" -- the Moshe Rebbeinu of the generation.

Hashem Yishmor Aleinu!
(5/6/2009 4:59:38 PM)
100
to 95

To 95
Don't worry they won't reply to such a comment, they didn't even read the whoe letter, if he is cursing out the meshichistim they will always agree (just like they say we will always be against)
A bunch of self hating lubavitchers, he also writes that it is osur to go to the ohel what have they to say to that!?
But then again they probably all can't read the hebrew pity col didn't translate the whole letter!
(5/6/2009 5:20:59 PM)
101
alive?
Learn Likkutei Sichos Chelek chof-vov, the first sicha, ois zayin: the Rebbe says that there constantly must be a nassi hador in whom Moshe Rabbeinu's neshama is enclothed. There are 2 choices: a) the Rebbe is alive; b) there is a new Rebbe (not really possible based on what the Rebbe says many times- we are the 7th generation, the last of galus and first of Geula).
It's really kedai to learn the whole sicha inside.
(5/6/2009 6:27:10 PM)
102
to #96
Excuse me but it seems you don’t understand the ravs writings. (Maybe you should have someone explain it to you).
The rav is refuting a certain person’s sefer
As he says at the beginning (6 lines into it) he says this sefer is not Kahalacha and that is why he is writing it.
He then goes on to quote from it.
Please understand this before you write a comment.
It’s the sefira so I am being kind
(5/6/2009 6:46:14 PM)
103
95, BACK TO 99
Thanks. levi garelik just spoke to us in o.t. explaing alot about this whole thing.
(5/6/2009 6:56:15 PM)
104
To all those who are quoting the sicha of bais Nissan
the rebbe said YECHI HAMELECH gives chayos
The rebbe did NOT say the nusach that they say now yechi.. melech hamashiach.

and this is what the rav writes
that saying yechi.. MELECH HAMASIACH is a bezoyon.

(5/6/2009 6:58:20 PM)
105
104
Meshichisten, Lo-Meshichisten, we're all Rebbe's Chassidim. The Rebbe needs each of us to reach every Jew and bring Geulah to the world now.
(5/6/2009 11:32:28 PM)
106
to 105
SHKOYACH!
Well said,
Brothers, DAYENU!!
Sholom al Yisroel!
Let's just focus on our Tafkid!
Moshiach NOWWWWWWWWW
(5/7/2009 1:56:15 AM)
107
Truly a Koton - Meshane Halachos
It should be noted that Menashe Klein has been involved in several scams regarding the heter meah rabbonim for gittin. His sefer is referred to as the Meshane Halachos in some circles because of this and other controversies.
(5/7/2009 2:13:22 AM)
108
please explain.
I have a question. If the Rebbe said personally to say "yechi Hamelech" then why is noone saying this? I am not talking about "yechi adoneinu". Thats not what the rebbe said to say. The world would be so much more accepting to "yechi hamelech", which is why the Rebbe said to say it, but noone does......i find that very strange. Can someone please explain??
(5/7/2009 3:00:49 AM)
109
#96 WOW SO TRUE!
#96
Indeed what you say is so true, this piece from R' M K is actually incriminating to anyone who says that to believe the Rebbe could still be Moshiach is apikorsos. Though I don't believe the notion that the Rebbe needs to be alive b'daas tachton etc nevertheless R' Menashe's attempts to refute it with his V'yesh Lomars and pshotim & chidushim in Medrash & Agada makes R' Sholom B Volpo look like the Posek Hador.
(5/7/2009 3:03:25 AM)
110
Mendy
ז' תמוז תשנ"ו:

להלן מענה לשאלות הרבות אודות עמדתי בהנוגע לליובאוויטש ואמונתם המשיחית.

לפני ג' תמוז כללתי את עצמי בין אלה שהאמינו כי הרבי היה ראוי להיות המשיח. אני מאמין באופן מוחלט, כי לו היינו - במיוחד הקהיל האורטודוקסית - מאוחדים, היינו זוכים לגאולה השלימה.

בקשר לאמונה של רבים מחסידי חב”ד (כולל רבנים מובהקים וראשי ישיבות) - אמונה המיוסדת על הצהרות דומות של הרבי בעצמו, בקשר לקודמו בתפקיד הרבי הקודם, כולל רבנים חשובים וראשי ישיבות, שהרבי יכול עדיין להיות משיח - לאור הגמרא בסנהדרין, הזוהר, האברבנאל, כתבי האריז”ל, השדי חמד ועוד מקורות - אני לא יכול לומר שהאמונה הזאת היא דבר שמחוץ לזרם האורתודוכסי."

"כל ניסיון ציני להשתמש בחילוקי דיעות איך לפרש בנושא זה, ולהשתמש בזה כדי להזיק לתנועת חב”ד שהייתה ועדיין ממשיכה להיות התנועה שעומדת בראש הלוחמים במיסיון ובהתבוללות, רק יכול להביא יותר לבעיות בקהילה היהודית, ובמיוחד בקהילה התורנית.

על המחנה התורני לגייס את כל כוחותיו להתאחד, ברוח האמיתית של אהבת ישראל ולהילחם באויב האמיתי של ישראל. אני מוחה וקורא להפסיק כל תעמולה להכפיש את תנועת ליובאוויטש או כל זרם לגיטימי אחר בתוך יהדתו התורה

עד כאן ממכתבו של הרב סולובייצ'יק.

הרב העשל גרינברג שהיה מאחורי הקלעים מספר: הייתי רוצה לספר את הרקע למכתב, כיוון שכאשר אני מזכיר את העובדה שהרב סולובייצ’יק חתם על המכתב, אנשים אומרים לי שהם יודעים ממקורות מוסמכים שזה לא נכון, שהוא אף פעם לא כתב את זה, וזה זיוף, והם יודעים ממקורות מוסמכים שהוא היה תחת לחץ לכתוב את זה, ואחרי זה אני שומע עוד שאנשים אומרים שהם יודעים ממקורות מוסמכים שאחרי זה הוא חזר בו וביטל את המכתב. אם הוא לא כתב את זה -איך הוא ביטל את זה?...

ובכן, אלו הן העובדות: אני הייתי בחדרו של הרב סולובייצ’יק יחד עם עוד שני רבנים שהיו עדים איך שהרב חותם על המכתב.

המכתב עצמו לא נכתב אישית על ידי הרב סולובייצ’יק. הוא לא לקח עט וכתב את זה, כיוון שהוא היה משותק ומאוד היה קשה בשבילו לשבת ולכתוב. המכתב הזה הכיל תוכן מהרעיונות שהרב סולובייצ’יק אמר בעל פה לרב אלי טורין משיקגו, ואני עזרתי לנסח את המכתב שיכיל את כל הרעיונות של הרב סולובייציק בנושא הזה.

הבאנו את המכתב לרב סולובייציק. הרב סולובייציק היה גדול בתורה. אף אחד לא יכול לדמיין לעצמו שאדם בדמותו היה נכנע לכתוב בשמו, דבר שהוא כפירה. אם מישהו מאמין לזה, הוא יכול להאמין כל דבר. זה עלבון גדול לאדם בדמותו של הרב סולובייציק זצ”ל אם יאמינו עליו כזה דבר.

היה לנו דו-שיח מאוד מהנה. דיברנו אודות הנושא ברוח טובה, ואמרנו לרב סולובייציק שזה תוכן המכתב שהיינו מבקשים לפרסם כדי להפסיק את ההתקפות הבזויות הללו על חב”ד. האם הרב מוכן לחתום על זה. הרב סולובייציק עבר על המכתב מאוד בזהירות. קרא פעם ועוד פעם, ואחר כך אמר “אני אחתום על זה”, והוא אכן חתם על זה.

המכתב פורסם בעיתון ג’ואיש פרעס, ולפני שהם פירסמו את זה, המערכת בעצמה צילצלה לרב סולובייציק לוודא שזאת אכן חתימתו על המכתב. הוא אישר את זה, ורק אז המערכת פירסמה את המכתב.

מה שמדברים על ההבהרה שהוא פירסם שבוע אחר כך, שמשתמע ממנה כאילו הוא חזר בדבריו, זה היה כיוון שמישהו פירש את המכתב שלא לנכון. הרב סולובייציק לא חתם שהוא אומר שהרבי הוא משיח, אלא רק שזה דבר לגיטימי, שיש מקורות לגיטימיים לאמונה של אלו שמאמינים, ואף אחד לא יכול לבקר את זה או לגנות את זה. זה תוכן מכתבו השני של הרב סולובייצ’יק, שפורסם בגואיש פרעס שבוע אחר כך.

אם האמת כדברי האומרים שהאמונה הזאת היא כפירה -איך הרב סולובייצ’יק יכול לומר שאסור לגנות את זה?אלה שהכירו את הרב אהרן סולובייצ’יק, ואני הכרתי אותו היטב, יודעים שמדובר באדם שלא חת לפרסם את דעתו ברבים, גם כאשר היא לא נעמה לחוגים מסויימים.

היו לי הרבה הזדמנויות לדבר איתו ולשמוע את השקפותיו החזקות בעניני יהדות. הוא היה תקיף מאוד נגד הממשל הישראלי על כך שהם החזירו שטחים תמורת הסכמי השלום המזוייפים. לאידך, הוא תמך תמיכה מלאה בעניינים שלדעתו היו חשובים, למרות שלדעת רבים ביהדות ארצות הברית הם לא היו פופולריים.

ובנושא הזה לא שמענו שום ביקורת ממנו. הדבר היחיד ששמענו ממנו, שזאת אמונה לגיטימית המיוסדת על מקורות היהדות, ואין בעייה להאמין היום שהרבי הוא מלך המשיח. לכן, כל מי שממשיך ללחום, לבקר ולגנות את חסידי חב”ד על אמונתם זו, הוא מכריז מלחמה גם נגד גדול בתורה בדמותו של הרב סולובייצ’יק.
(5/7/2009 3:14:00 AM)
111
question
WHICH MEMBER FROM AGUCH IS THE NOSI HADOR / MOSHIACH SHEBEDOR NOW?
(5/7/2009 3:53:01 AM)
112
To #86 and others.
Whenever there are two parties (even from the same religion and sect) that are in disagreement, there are always "extremists" and "radicals" within each party.

There has been no definitive answer from the Rebbe whether or not he is Moshiach, or whether or not we are supposed to publicize that he is Moshiach. The Rebbe's reactions to "Yechi" can be interpreted either way. The Rebbe's Sichos from '88-'92 can be understood in different ways as well.

Under normal circumstances, it would be possible for people of both "opinions" (not "parties") to dwell in peace. After all, regarding "Milchama Shel Torah - Even those who become enemies debating the Halachos of Torah, they have a guarantee that they will not budge from there until they make peace."

It is the extremists of both parties, however, that do not allow peace. This is because they have formed their "own religion". We automatically identify the members of either party with the extremists, not allowing us to clearly see what their true beliefs are.

Yes, there ARE extremists in both parties. There are the extremists who act like the Taliban in 770, and have formed their own cult, and there are the extremists who live at the Ohel.

If Menashe Klein was targeting the extremists, then I couldn't agree more. (Even though I think he should have not mixed in at all.)
(5/7/2009 4:19:57 AM)
113
KFL?
to kolel for life
boy are you a hot misnaged! so much musar!
u show off so much. try to learn how to be a onov
i pity the kolel managers who have to put up with you
(5/7/2009 4:24:58 AM)
114
114
to my understanding evrey lubavitcher believes the rebbe is moshiach that means evrey lubavitcher would be included in this "psak" so therfore ignore this "goan"
(5/7/2009 5:19:39 AM)
115
to #144
please, please read what teh rav wrote
he did NOT say that

He does attack the idea that the LR will be Moshiach, but he doesn't call it apikorsus. The teshuvah is written in response to one of the Messianic pamphlets, and addresses the usual talking points one by one.

For most of them he gives the standard refutations, regarding the Abarbanel, l he says OK, the Rebbe could come back to life and THEN be Moshiach, but he can't be Moshiach now, because he hasn't come back to life yet.

In any case, there's no question that he does disapprove of the Messianics, he calls for the Yechi...Melech Hamoshiach to stop, and he spends two pages calling on Lubavitchers to appoint a new rebbe, even if he can't be more than a shadow of the last one.
(5/7/2009 5:37:45 AM)
116
to 43
you dare to call the person who the rebbe called "rasha" tzadik! you call the bum who referd to the rebbe as 'the person who sits in new york and drives the world crazy" moran virabonon. lubavitch is not destroyng itself , but some radicals and anti-radical yechi pepole are destroyng no-one but themselvs.

as to those against yechi , please read this:http://www.moshiach.net/count.htm :

it must not remain inddifrrent to anyone. it is a must evrey truth seeking individual.
(5/7/2009 5:50:31 AM)
117
to 112
"It is the extremists of both parties, however, that do not allow peace. This is because they have formed their "own religion". We automatically identify the members of either party with the extremists, not allowing us to clearly see what their true beliefs are.

Yes, there ARE extremists in both parties. There are the extremists who act like the Taliban in 770, and have formed their own cult, and there are the extremists who live at the Ohel."

First off, this whole notion of "it's both sides etc..." is bull.
It's just another Cheap shot.

In your very own example:
How many people do you know that got hurt from the people who are by the Rebbe (at the ohel) "all the time".
Those people can do what they want, they are not telling me or you what to do. It's like saying this guy learns Gemara in an extreme manner, So what? whos he hurting?

While the other extrem, the mishichistim have hurt and beat up etc... taken down, made little, have made mesira etc... all in the name of Yechi.
I don't see any mishichist whos afraid to walk in to a not mishichist shul, but we do see it the other way around.

Again, this whole notion of "it's both sides? is just more of the same propaganda weve been sold all these years.
The realty is very different.
(5/7/2009 6:14:56 AM)
118
to 43
you brag about the anivus of those stupid misnagdim, something that does'nt exist. how about telling the story from dem lubavitcher rebbin's zichroynes about 'alle di anuvim'l. yes , it does happen to be that the rebbiem and chassidim have proven thier supeirior knowledge in niglah and chassidus, but they dont brag like you , mr. sach your chazzan ish ect.

you should be cursed eternally for insulting hashem, toyras hachassidus , the rebbe and evrything holy.

may you burn in gehinom until your unforggivibale sins are forgivven by the all-mercifful hashem


as to 116, thank you for posting the link
(5/7/2009 6:34:53 AM)
119
Is Klein suggesting making an EGEL HAZAHAV as a "replacement"
Anti Meshichist, stupid as usual rejoice with their new found friend menashe Klein.

The silly anti-meshichisten rejoice when anyone says anything negative and derogatory towards meshichisten.

But the silly anti-meshichsiten don't realize that their new found friend, equally does not approve of going to the Ohel and he wants the anti-meshichisten to make up a "new Rebbe" - just like the yidden in the Midbar made and EGEL HAZOHOV to replace Moshe Rabeinu when they mistakenly thought Moshe was dead.

As the Rebbe says, we now live in the dor of "Yisbareru Veyislabnu" where all so called "big machers", show their true colors.

Menashe Klein's assessment of Lubavitch today is no better than Burger's book, opposing the Meshichisten.

At least when Burger came out with his book - at least then, even the anti-meshichist had enough sechel to realize that Burger was not their true friend.

Here, with the anti-meshichist "new friend", they have not yet figure out that this Menashe Klein thinks not better of all of those at the Ohel.

Rather Menashe Klein is suggesting making new Egel as "New Rebbe", instead.

Little does he know that there already plenty of such Egel Hazohovs today who all think that "only they" control Lubavitch and only they know what is right and what is wrong and that EVERYONE MUST BOW DOWN to them.
(5/7/2009 6:39:00 AM)
120
snags
klien himself is seen in the picture going to some sort of ohel, probabley the stiplers, and he forbids lubavitchers from going to the ohel.

shame on misnagdim, who first say that pictures of the rebbe is avodah zorah , then , 20 years later ,"Harav" svei's picture is diplayed in the mishpacha magazine like an american idol.

i wouldent be suprised if, in 20 years, harav chaim kanievsky and r' chaim pinchas schienberg would be fighting for the postion of moshiach in the litvishe yeshivos
(5/7/2009 6:39:40 AM)
121
to #119
excuse me what are you talking about?
yehoshua bin Nun was appointed after Moshe Rabainu.
Stop, please stop this narish, talk one says after dowsing a gallon of vodka
genug shoin
we are chabad a little saichel please just a litte saichel.
lechayim and remmber only four small ones - your post sounded like you dosed yourself with the whole bottle
(5/7/2009 6:54:10 AM)
122
to 116
just for the record the Rebbe never called him a Rasha.
As far as I know the Rebbe wouldnt call anyone a rasha.
(5/7/2009 7:42:14 AM)
123
LOL LOL LOL
he mocks the entire chabad
1) he writes that going to the ohal is not allowed
2) that chabad needs a new rebbe
3 )its against halacha to say that the rebbe is moshiach
but 130 people who wrote comments d'ont know how to read the small latter's
this how far we have come using our enemy to fight within
(5/7/2009 8:03:03 AM)
124
Yud
It is olrordy 2009 Tuv shin samech tes DOR HASHMINI Wake up And Follow Torah And Dont makeThe Torah Folow You
(5/7/2009 8:13:26 AM)
125
Ominous
Reading these readers comments, many of which belittle (at best) the words and character of R' Menashe Klein, I shudder at the thought that history may be repeating itself. Hundreds of years ago, before Lubavitch existed, there was a messianic movement, supported by most of the Jewish community -- even the Rabbanim (to be anti- was actually dangerous). People wanted so much to believe that this new leader was Moshiach, that they withdrew from common sense, paid no attention to their concerns and followed him, until it was too late. It could have been the end for us, but we eventually recovered. Let's not do this again.
(5/7/2009 8:21:24 AM)
126
Rabbi Klein is a Friend
Rabbi Menashe Klein wrote this because of his respect and honor of the Rebbe. He is on our side. Yet he feels the Mshichistim are destroying the Rebbe's image in many circles. The Rebbe was Mekarev him all the yaers. R Klein even told someone at one point , before 3 Tamuz, that the Rebbe is fit to be Mashiach and that he - R Klein - would considef it an honor to carry his thigs (like R Akiva carried Bar Kochba's when he thought he was Mashiach). Apparently, after Tamuz 3 the Rabbi feels that now it is inapropraite to categorize the Rebbe as a living Mashiach.
(5/7/2009 8:50:48 AM)
127
no comparison
to 124
how can you compare the times of shabsai tzvi to now that the rebbe explicitly said its the 7th generation and moshiach is coming! shabsai tzvi was a heretic. LEHAVDIL the rebbe iscompletely different
(5/7/2009 8:52:02 AM)
128
Interesting point...
Shabtai Tzvi was mentally ill, and didn't push for followers initially (apparently, he was actually against going public). It was his aide-de-camp, Natan, who proclaimed his Messiah-ship. Obviously, you can't compare the Rebbe zt'l to him, but the meshichistim are repeating the same mistake that Natan did.
(5/7/2009 9:10:34 AM)
129
Is Dead also Alive?
Rabbi Menashe Klein clearly is not rejecting the Torah validity of believe a deceased tzaddik as being moshiach. Rather, Rabbi Klein is rejecting as apikoses the false notion that a deceased tzaddik is "alive", like reshoyim who walk around and talk. Such people are considered dead already. But a true tzaddik is always alive, even after he or she becomes deceased in bodily form. That is one toic. The other topic is the reciting of "yeshi", which Rabbi Kleins considers wrong, like many Lubavitchers, because he feels that it promotes an apikores idea. But Rabbi Klein fails to understand that the intent of "yechi" is not to promote falsehood, that "dead is alive". Rather, most Lubavitchers who recite "yechi" do so to affirm their belief that the Rebbe is still moshiach. And that, Rabbi Klein does not reject or describe as apikores.
(5/7/2009 9:36:24 AM)
130
re: #31
'The inyan of moshiach is entirely seperate. Seems like a pretty silly psak. Don't take it so seriously.'

This led to previous groups of Jews to all lose their way. Once halchah becomes secondary to "hashkafah" (more accuratly: perceived hashkafah) all is lost.
(5/7/2009 9:36:32 AM)
131

I dont care if you say yechi in your basment ( and lock the doors ) but dont do it outside were people misunderstand it.
(5/7/2009 10:51:29 AM)
132
Kollel for Life
To #118:

I am not mochel you!

You were oyver on several issurim including M'kallel (cursing out a Jew) & Bizuy Talmid Chochom. Clearly you have little regard for Torah or mitzvos.

May Hashem have mercy on your lost soul.

I hope and pray that there are none like you among Chadabniks who speak of "Ahavas Yisroel". Clearly you have no clue what such foreign words mean.

You disgrace the ones who taught you, including your Rebbe.
(5/7/2009 11:48:30 AM)
133
kollel for life
if you were such a great talmid chacham you would get off the interent and stop bashing people.
were sick and tired of your commetnts..go learn some real stuff that teach you how to behave bc what your doing now is not working
-chabad and proud!
(5/7/2009 12:09:44 PM)
134
Ohel
He says not to go to the Ohel, but if you look closely at the picture on top, you see he's coming out of the ohel. He contradicts himself.
(5/7/2009 12:19:12 PM)
135
To #104
See first comment.
(5/7/2009 12:44:07 PM)
136
Kollel for Life
To #133

Are you being choshed b'kesherim on me that I c"v use the internet? Gedolim have assured it!

V'h'yisem nikiyim - I will respond to your accusation.

I tell my messages to a shaliach (a proxy - not one of your"shluchim"). Since, ain shliach lidvar averah, I remain free from any internet involvement.

I use a shaliach who r"l anyway uses the internet, so there is no lifnei ivayr.

As far as bitul zman, there is a toeles to be marbitz my da'as Torah l'rabim, even if done through a non-kosher forum.

It is time to be mekarev those who are tinokos shenishbu and were born into a society that has left mainstream Yiddishkeit. Such people may not be apikorsim, since they don't know better. By being mechanech the fringes of our brethern, we may salvage a few misguided souls.

Learn Torah! Be meshamesh talmidei chachomim! Be mikabel da'as Torah! Support lomdei Torah! Marry your daughters to talmidei chachomim! These are the basics of Yiddishkeit.
(5/7/2009 1:10:51 PM)
137
To #125
Do you consider the Rebbe - YOUR Rebbe -?
You want to compare the Rebbe to Shabsai Tzvi Chas VeShalom??

FACT 1: The Rebbe said "The Nossi haDor is the Moshiach haDor" (if you think that by writing "Nossi Doreinu" your Parev...)

FACT 2: The Rebbe said "Our Generation is the last Generation of Galus and the First of Geulah".

FACT 3: The Rebbe encoureged Yechi Adoneinu (not just "Yechi Hamelech") not only during the entire year of 1993 but also 1991 (15 Iyar) BEFORE the Rebbe had a stroke (if such an occurance means to you that the Rebbe doesn't Ch"V know what he's doing anymore...) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSyj1wOkiTc

FACT 4: The Rebbe said in the early years "Just like it was a sure thing for us before that the (previous) Rebbe would take us out of Galus, it must remain a sure thing now too".

...and for you people that claim the Rebbe never said to say the (entire) Yechi Adoneinu etc., but just YECHI HAMELECH - WHY DON'T YOU SAY THAT?
(5/7/2009 1:11:38 PM)
138
#99
99 RIGHT ON!
(5/7/2009 1:13:46 PM)
139
Likutei Mekoros
is a Sefer with actual copies of the Rebbe's sichos and other mekoros in Torah, explaining why we say that
1. The Rebbe is Alive, and
2. The Rebbe is Moshiach.

LEARN FOR YOURSELF and stop calling it meshichist propoganda and "hidden agenda" etc. etc.
Learn for yourself.
Get your sources from The Rebbe and not some other Gadol...
(5/7/2009 1:17:24 PM)
140
#137 is a mistake!
collive made the last two paregraphs as if it is part of the utube link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSyj1wOkiTc
(5/7/2009 1:21:22 PM)
141
re 139 - What do you mean "the Rebbe is Alive"?
] 139

] Likutei Mekoros

] is a Sefer with actual copies of the Rebbe's sichos
] and other mekoros in Torah,
] explaining why we say that
] 1. The Rebbe is Alive etc.

Please quote, or summarize.

Chazal also asserts that a true tzaddik is called "alive", and never dead, even after he or she is deceased.

Furthermore, the Talmud says that moshiach can either be from among the living, or "min hamaysim" from among the deceased. This is explained by Rabbi Medini in his halacha encyclopedia, S'dei Chemed, and by others.

So, no one argues this point without running the risk of denying an idea in the Talmud.

I think that Rabbi Menashe Klein is not addressing this at all. He is concerned, rather, with people who falsely think the Rebbe is walking around in a guf gashmee, a physical body, ignoring the words of our sages obm.

Are you claiming such a foolish thing?


(5/7/2009 1:52:33 PM)
142
Kol Hatzorer Leyirael Naaseh Rosh
Does he want to become Rebbe?
(5/7/2009 2:31:44 PM)
143
To #141
At the end, i'm not saying weather I belive that or not, but they base their claim on what the Rebbe said that Moshiach/the Rebbe's house is 770, and that is his place until the geulah.

THAT is what I think THEY believe.
(5/7/2009 2:42:35 PM)
144
Rabbi Klein NEBACH NEBACH
MOST OF YOU ARE MISSING 1 IMPORTANT THING!!!

JEWS FOLLOW DAAS TORAH,

TO REB MENASHEH "hakotton"

and all u posting your opinions:

PLEASE PLEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASE!

LEARN THE "TORAH-SOURCES" ON THE SUBJECT
(for a chossid: include Sichos NUN ALEF+)

turn down your fear of the truth!!

all the sources paint a very straight forward picture!

the Rebbeh is in a state of "NICHSEH" as predicted in numerous sources, and this piriod of Galus is the Last stance before the stage of "Chizer-VNisgaleh"

do the research!!!!!!


perhaps b/c of ppl like R M Klein, the Rebbeh insisted that HIS chasidim all KNOW THE SUBJECT "INYANE GELUA" VERY WELL

he may be very learned in general, yet any 13yr old Brinwa Talmid can wipe the floor with these "gedolim re Inyonei moshiach vGeula!!

its actually quite entertainnig to watch a debate between a Lubavitcher bochur, and any "learned snag"!! lol
(5/7/2009 3:01:07 PM)
145
since when do snags come on COLLive?
example: 43
i mean what do they want to kriech out
(5/7/2009 3:06:48 PM)
146
Where did this meshugas originate?
The false belief that the Rebbe belongs to a special category is not alive like other great tzaddikim. Rather, he alone still has a physical body after his demise.

I recall that Mr. Rami Atiyon a"h once mentioned this meshugas at his son's sholem zachur which I attended. He likely regrets saying it now. As we know, he was not a Torah scholar, but a fortunate person, who was rich for awhile.

The Torah states that "Yaakov lo meis" - that our forefather Jacob never died. The Zohar asserts the same about Moshe Rabeinu.

As Rashi explains there that his physical body appeared like everyone else.

Maharsha explains that when tzaddikim are considered alive, even after their demise, they are like sleeping in the grave.

The Rebbe cites an example in the Talmud of a great sage who materialized himself into a body, wore clothes, even his sirtuk, and made kiddush for his family for many weeks until he was asked to stop by other living sages.

So, that episode teaches us that such a thing is in deed possible, but not the norm. Even in that event, the deceased sage did not have a physical body all the time, but only on special occasions.

I think that this meshugas that Rabbi Menashe Klein calls apikores is simply espoused by some ignoramuses, mistakenly, because they do not understand the Rebbe's sicha about "Yaakov lo meis". It's printed in Hebrew in the original book of "V'hu Yigaleinu", and in English in the sequel book of "And he will redeem us".

I suggest that we read it, instead of inventing explanations.
(5/7/2009 3:21:37 PM)
147
Kollel for Life
To #145:

See 136 -

"...there is a toeles(positive purpose) to be marbitz (disseminate) my da'as Torah l'rabim (true Torah views to the masses), even if done through a non-kosher forum. "

"It is time to be mekarev (bring close) those who are tinokos shenishbu (kidnapped infants) and were born into a society that has left mainstream Yiddishkeit. Such people may not be apikorsim (heretics), since they don't know better. By being mechanech (educating) the fringes of our brethern, we may salvage a few misguided souls."

"Learn Torah! Be meshamesh talmidei chachomim! Be mikabel da'as Torah! Support lomdei Torah! Marry your daughters to talmidei chachomim! These are the fundamental basics of Yiddishkeit. The rest is commentary."

I would be the first to welcome you back to the Jewish People. You can place your shtender next to mine!!!
(5/7/2009 4:03:51 PM)
148
Responsible Reporting
The staff of C.O.L. should be more careful in reporting things just for sensationalism. There are other non-chabad sites that quote C.O.L. and they are directly responsible for the anti-Chabad comments posted there (see vosizneias.com)
(5/7/2009 5:34:09 PM)
149
WOWWWWWWWWWW!!
SOOOOOOOOO SURPRISED!!!

is it a shock to u, that a 90 yr old, is being fed info by "anti-chabad" ppl with an agenda,?

learn some history,

IS HE GREATER THAN THE VILNA GAON, who was ALSO GIVEN SLANTED REPORTS ABOUT THE "BAAL HATANYA"

BTW

DOES ANYONE REMEMBER WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT THE SIGNS OF MOSHIACH

THAT BIG GEONIM WILL BE THE ONES TO "RESIST HIM"

CHERFU IKVOS MESHICHECHO"!!!
(5/7/2009 6:23:28 PM)
150
3 QUESTIONS 4RMK
when a mishichist asked him to proove that moshiach cant be "min hameisim" he squirmed!!!!!

then the m. asked, did you ever find a makor that actually predicts that noshiach will be NISGALEH, NICHSEH, CHOIZER VNISGALEH? ...again nisht gelaint!! ...he never read that either!!!

MY FRIENDS THIS IS A MAN, WHO KNOWS VERY VERY LITTLE on the subject!

any 8th grader in OT. can STUMP this self proclaimed ONOV

HIS INSIDE CIRCLE JUST SUCEEDED TO EXPOSE AND HUMILIATE HIS GADLUS ON THE WORLD STAGE
(5/7/2009 6:31:11 PM)
151
#144
how many lechayims did you have before your comment?

loz oput
(5/7/2009 7:05:51 PM)
152
STUMP THE RABBI!
try this,

(its lots of FUN!!)

find any Snag Posek, Godol etc

ask the following questions:

1) is there a Makor in Daas Torah that allows Moshiach min hameisim?

2) is there a Makor in Daas Torah that allows a convincing appearance of Death, yet in fact was a test (in faith of Moshe's words)?

3) Is there a Makor,,, that right before Moshiach comes, he will be resisted by BIG BIG TALMIDEI CHACHOMIM?

4) is there a Makor... that Nosi = Moshiach,

5) is there a Makor... Moshiach's body will be hidden for a Darker period of galus After annoucing the Geula, yet things for a while get worse (like by Moshe Rabeinu)

6) Has the Rebbeh ever predicted an event that did not come to pass?

7) Hasent the Rebbeh proclaimed, the last generation of Galus and the first...

8) Hasent the Vilna Gaon been MISLEAD by his own close Talmidim, is it possible that your own close circle, Simplistically mixed up the entire Lubavitch moshiach Phenomenon into a very distorted and Factually wron picture?

the List goes on , u get the idea,

these ppls mistake is to RUSH TO CONCLUSIONS before doing due diligent research.

i have found, that the more one knows on the subject, the less absurd the "craizies" become!!

similar to the Leviyim in the midbar vdal
(5/7/2009 7:29:54 PM)
153
simple q.
1) kuntres beis rabbinu shebbovel,
"http://www.torah4blind.org/hebrew/dm48a.pdf"
(5/7/2009 7:30:45 PM)
154
THANKS 2 this MAN
THOSE WHO ARE OPENMINDED will do the research and discover the SHOCKING TRUTH

that what seems NUTS! is actually well backed by many torah sources

and surprise surprise!!

many gedolim are actually very "IGNORANT" of major amounts of INYANEI GELAH... its really AMAZING!!!!
(5/7/2009 7:34:05 PM)
(5/7/2009 7:35:53 PM)
156
the MAN means well
he really wants to know the truth!!

why not send to him, a delegation of TALMIDEI CHACHOMIM, equiped with 1000 pages of Torah sources (that he probably never knew existed)
and HELP HIM GET BETTER INFORMED,
than we'll see which SNAGS or ANTIs are gloating!!
(5/7/2009 7:37:50 PM)
157
SOO HE MADE A MISTAKE! BIG DEAL!!
why is everyone soooooooooooo in shock that a mere mortal wrote a whole book (many books) and FINALLY u cought him by a mistake!

cut him some slack!! please! hes like really old! he;s surrounded by sonei-mishichistim feeding him one big jumble of info, what do you expect???

leave the Rabbi alone

again, NO BODY IS PERFECT, WE ARE ALL ENTITLED TO MAKE A MISTAKE ONCE IN A WHILE, soo get over it, and appreciate all the nice things he wrote in the rest of the Sefer!!

ONLY A REBBEH CANT MAKE A MISTAKE, OTHERWISE HOW DO WE KNOW THAT MOSHE RABEINU WROTE THE TORAH 100%
(5/7/2009 7:43:29 PM)
158
2ALL SNAGS and ANTIs
get off your high horses and learn alittle "inyonei geula and moshiach"
be prepared for some uncomfortable "growing pains"
you are gonna be SHOCKED and STUMPED (and hopefully HUMBLED) by what you findout! yes

to believe that the rebbeh can be moshiach is 100% within torah sources, and to believe that the Rebbeh is NOT dead in the grave like any otherTzadik, has a number of Mekoros as well,
exactly what the Rebbe;s status is untill the complete hisgalus is spelled out in Zohar, Yalkut shimony, Rashi, Several meforshim, see Rabbi Shlomo Majesky's booklet on Geula and Moshiach where he gathered all the mekoros for you!!

have FUN!!!
(5/7/2009 7:50:44 PM)
159
TOO SIMPLISTIC
to LUMP together all yechi amd Meshichistim as he does

is the biggest evidence of his "IRRELEVANCE" and how misinformed and out of touch he is (perhaps thanks to his inner circle of chabad-lovers)

let him get to know some of our "mishichist" rabonim personally before making sweeping generalizations!!

let him her the arguments etc...

unfortunately HE HAS TURNED DOWN all attempts the last 5 years!!

what is HE afraid of??!

when he came to 770 after gimel tamuz 2 bachurim, stumped him silent and left him flustered! HE HAS CLEARLY NOT GOTTEN OVER THAT SINCE!
(5/7/2009 7:57:48 PM)
160
hey HE'S HUMAN!!!!!!!!!
ITS OK! SO HE MADE A MISTAKE, HE;S NOT PERFECT! ARE U?
(5/7/2009 7:59:22 PM)
161
pro-rebbe anti meshichist
R menashe never said meshichistim are apikorsim. he said those who beleive the rebbe is STILL ALIVE are apikorsim. aderabe from his tshuva you can see that he holds one can beleive that rebbe can still be moshiach, only that he will get up through tchiasHAMEISIM. i'm saddened that everything must be said so bluntly. but not speaking clearly brought this problem in the firs place
(5/7/2009 11:38:10 PM)
162
About the Frierdiker Rebbe being alive
The Rebbe זי"ע said that the Frierdiker Rebbe is alive through his Torah, his Chassidim and Shluchim, NOT in a Guf Gashmi. And the Sicha to say Yeshi Hamelesh applies only when the Tzaddik Hador is alive. And if you look closely, the Rebbe never swung his hand around on 15 Iyar.
(5/8/2009 12:43:31 AM)
163
Horrified
im absoloutely HORRIFIED by the way you speak about a godul of a man. The comments here are disrespectful, discusting.
(5/8/2009 2:18:56 AM)
164
M
to 147 who calls h7 who calls himself ''kollel for life":
I AM FOREVER INDEBTED TO YOU, oh holy and gaon You, i am but a mere mortal next to You, and You have bestowed on me the Honor to place my SHTENDER next to yours!!!
(if you havent noticed, im being sarcastic)
please practice a bit the laws of anivus. it will do good for all of us. and maybe break your promise of 'kolel for life', step out of the kolel and go to a mental hospital for a few days. i am not afraid of what you are going to say 'im not moichel you' so save your breath.
---------
ATT. MESHICHISTIM:
im sure the rebbe nSHLITA nosi dorenu, melech hamoshiach would not have wanted us to 'rip' rabbi klein, even if thats exactly what he did to us.(i am a meshichist)
i liked the last par of 149. good point
i also liked that comment about how the rebbe is the descendant of the alter rebbe and reb nochum chernobyler (see 27)
yechi adonenu morenu verabenu melech HAMOSHIACH leolam vaed! (no i didnt stop just because of what rabbi klein says. i still believe the rebbe is moshiach)
(5/8/2009 2:40:56 AM)
165
to 162
and did the rebbe move half his body vigrously on chof ches cheshvan ? did the rebbe aprrove the text on the kever of a man ,which stated that he was an ardent follower of the Rebbe M"HM? So YAH!
(5/8/2009 4:07:04 AM)
166
163
Nice of him to care so much (rolling eyes) Seems to me he could have been studying Torah, doing Mitzvohs and refining himself and his own group of followers. Guess it was more important to write about Chabad. I work in a place filled with misnagdim, they spend all day making jokes about Chabad. The name means Opposed. Don't kid yourself how many people are jealous of Chabad's ongoing success since Gimmel Tammuz.

Next...
(5/8/2009 5:47:09 AM)
167
PRBLEM SOLVED!!
DO WHAT THE REBBEH BEGED US TO, "LEARN INYONEI GEULAH UMOSHIACH, AND YOU WILL BE SHOCKED TO DISCOVER WHAT TORAH SORCES ACTUALLY SAY, THAT YOU WOULD HAVE NEVER EXPECTED OR KNOWN ABOUT IF YOU ARE JUST A MAIN STREAM GODEL, WHO NEVER LERNED INYONEI GEULAH!!
(5/8/2009 6:03:39 AM)
168
HEY! HEY HEY! COOL-IT!
SO HE MAY KNOW ALOT OF TORAH, DOSENT MEAN HE KNOWS ALL THE RELEVANT MAREH MEKOMOS, ON THIS UNCOMMON HALACHAC SUBJECT!!
(5/8/2009 6:27:29 AM)
169
To 165
After the stroke the Rebbe זי"ע only moved his body/hand, to show that he was accepting there Tefilah that he should live, and every Lubavitcher believes that the Rebbe's Moshiach, BUT I'M NOT MEFARSEM IT, and I believe he's in the Ohel.
(5/8/2009 11:05:48 AM)
170
DIN MELECH BEFORE CHEZKAS MOSHIACH??
I am very surprised at Rav Klein's question about the eligibility of the Rebbe being Moshiach as the Rambam says "Yaamod Melech" and the Rebbe was not a Melech. Does Rabbi Klein think the Rambam is talking about someone who will have the din of a Melech even before he is established as Chezkas Moshiach? How could this possibly be. If he was appointed by a Novi, then he would not be only Chezkas Moshiach, he would be Vadai Moshiach and would not need any more simonim to prove his status as Moshiach as it wouldn't make sense for example to say that Eliyahu Hanavi would come and declare someone to be Melech Hamoshiach only to find out later that he wasn't the one? the nevuah was not true?

So how could the Rambam be possibly talking about a din Melech. And if you say that this "Melech" was not appointed for the purpose of "restoring Malchus Dovid" but rather as a melech stam, not as a Yoresh Malchus Dovid, for this appointment you need a Beis Din of 71 Zkeinim and a Novi as the Rambam paskens in Hilchos Melochim Perek 1 Halacha 3?! See also L'kutei Sichos volume 8 pg 361 where the Rebbe says we can't say the Rambam's intention of Yaamod Melech is through a Beis Din of 70 and a Novi, but rather al derech the concept of a king as the Rambam refers to "Ben Kuziva Hamelech" who was declared by Rabbi Akiva to be Melech Hamoshiach but he was not appointed by any Novi or Beis Din.

From the above is muchrach to say that the Rambam is referring not to someone who already enjoys mamosh dinei malchus but to the concept of a Manhig bichlal who is "called" a melech. We see in Midrash Raboh at the end of Parshas Bechukosai that Yiftach says "Ani MELECH VoEileich Eitzel Pinchas" even though Yiftach was only a Shofet but NOT a King (see Sh"UT of the Rashba "Hamiyuchosos L'Ramban" Siman 284 that a Shofet clearly does not have the din of a Melech).

As to this status of "Melech" Hamoshiach even before he shows simanim of Chezkas, see Rambam Hilchos Melochim perek 1 Halacha 7 where he writes: "Kivan Shenimshach Dovid Zocho B'Keser Malchus Vaharei Hamalchus Lo Ulvonov Hazechorim Ad Oilom" which means that Malchus Dovid exists forever also in the time of golus as Chazal tell us "Dovid Melech Yisroel Chai V'kayom", so even though we may not have the "cheftza" of Melucha, nevertheless, in every generation we have the "Gavra" of "Melech Mibeis Dovid" who inherits the Keser Malchus of Dovid Oviv.

See also the Akeida parshas Vayechi on the posuk "Lo Yosur Sheivet Miyehudah" who writes that in every generation Hashem did not leave us without a remnance from Shevet Yehudah, Rebi and all the Chachmei Hadoros, and they conducted "NESIUS, Rabonus and Geonus.. Vgam acharei Chein Lo Sor Meihem Shevet NOHEG SRORA UMINUI MALCHUS Biktzas Mekomos Moshvosom. Ukvar zochar Horav Binyomin Baal Hamaso-os Sherooh B'einov Bimdinas Bagdad Ir Gedolah Lelokim Vshomo Kamo Alofim Urevovos Miyisrael , Ub'yom Ginusom Malkom Haya Rochev, V'nosi Mizera Dovid Etzlo B'mirkeves Hamishne Asher Lo, V'yikoru L'fonov B'kovod Godol: Aso Derech L'Ben Dovid, UBCHOL ZMAN UZMAN YESH K'YOTZEI B'EILU B'CHOL MOKOM SHEHEIM" ad kan lshono.

See also Chidushei Agodos Maharsha 98:b on Divrei Hamaschil Kgon Ano: " DMoshiach...Mei-Osan Habo-im Mibnei Dovid V'adayin hoyo lohem Memsholo Gam B'Golus".

Bichlal I am surprised that Rav Klein would expend part of his sefer to bash yidden lomdim yirei Shomayim, a whole movement (it's already yodua umifursam that 99.9% of Lubavitchers, breish glei or shtillerheit believe the Rebbe is or will be Moshiach) dedicated to Harbotzas Torah, so you don't like their extremisim, but they have their own Rabonim, geonim boki bshas Uposkim and have sources in Torah for their hanhogos and don't need his input as he doesn't need the input of some Lubavitcher Rov to passel him for anything he does, let alone call him an apikoros r"l, very surprised at Rav Klein, unless someone led his hand ...

(5/8/2009 11:21:51 AM)
171
Learn the Sichos Please
B"H
With all due respect to the Rov, it is not fair to publish such opinions and/or statements unless one is familiar with the Rebbe's Sichos and Maamarim.

Like Rabbi D. Berger who bashed the Rebbe and Lubavitch over and over, Rov Klein's opinions appear to reflect a lack of knowledge of the Rebbe's teachings over the 40 plus years of his leadership.

If only those who criticize would learn FIRST, they would understand the reasons WHY Lubavitchers believe the way we do, and WHY we can still believe in the Rebbe's valid candidacy as Moshiach Tzidkenu.

And to the Mishuchistin who scream and wave flags, who use loud, obnoxious behavior, who walk around their neighborhoods with smashed dirty hats, and torn kapotes, you should be aware that you are making a BIG chilul Hashem in the Rebbe's name. The Rebbe wanted his chassidim to be "together" dressing and behaving in a menchliche way. Please reconsider your behavior and "clean up" your act!
(5/9/2009 3:48:44 PM)
172
Friedeker Rebs alive?
So why the rebbe took the leadership upon himself if he mean that friedeker rebbe is alive he would never do two opposites
Poeple cut down your stupidety with some common sense
(5/9/2009 5:08:10 PM)
173
yechi hamelech
(5/9/2009 5:40:52 PM)
174
Addition to #169
I saw a Sicha that the Rebbe said about the Frierdiker Rebbe IN HIS LIFETIME, so the Rebbe must have meant he's alive through his Torah and Shluchim.
(5/10/2009 1:30:52 AM)
175
#96 WOW SO TRUE!
#96
Indeed what you say is so true, this piece from R' M K is actually incriminating to anyone who says that to believe the Rebbe could still be Moshiach is apikorsos. Though I don't believe the notion that the Rebbe needs to be alive b'daas tachton etc nevertheless R' Menashe's attempts to refute it with his V'yesh Lomars and pshotim & chidushim in Medrash & Agada makes R' Sholom B Volpo look like the Posek Hador.
(5/10/2009 6:18:40 AM)
176
LEARN = MESHICHIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PRBLEM SOLVED!!


DO WHAT THE REBBEH BEGED US TO, over and over and over!!!

"LEARN INYONEI GEULAH UMOSHIACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

=...YOU WILL BE SHOCKED!! TO DISCOVER WHAT TORAH SORCES ACTUALLY SAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

....THAT YOU WOULD HAVE NEVER EXPECTED OR KNOWN ABOUT IF YOU ARE JUST A MAIN STREAM GODEL, learnining typical day to day nigleh!

WHO NEVER LERNED INYONEI GEULAH!!
(5/10/2009 7:53:21 AM)
177
kvoidoi bimkomo munach.
(5/10/2009 2:46:24 PM)
178
to # 39
Yes, he said yechi gives chayos. He did NOT say the additional "Melech Hamoshiach L'olam Voed" part.
(5/10/2009 4:30:38 PM)
179
ex-Boro Park
From his point of view (which excludes Sichos an Maamorim) Rav Menashe klein is right except for the following;
1. As pointed out above, if he contends that the Moshiach must, a s a condition precedent be a King (Melech) in Eretz Yisroel, then Moshiach can never ch'v come, a s how can a king be proclaimed until after the Geula in light of the 3 shavous in Kesuvos?
2. He is obviously saying that someone must be appointed a Rebbe as successor, by comparing it to Moshe Rabbenu, who apppointed Yehushua; this comparison is not valid, as the Rebbe clealy left no instructions for an 8th Rebbe- and it is clear that an 8th Rebbe was never contemplated by the Rebbe- so if rav Klein has any complaints- he should addrees them to the Rebbe.
3. It is interesting that he says that Yaakov Avonu was not in the catatgory of chaim after the kevurah- when the Bechaya on P' Vayechi, says the opposite- "al pi Kabbalah" that Yaakov avonu was given a new body and he is alive and helps Jews all over the world.
Obviously, Chassidus has more to say about this, but Rav Klein based his opinion on non-Chassidic sources.
I am sure that Rav Klein is sincere in what he wrote, and I hope that people will refrain from attacking him, but if someone can show him some of the Rebbe's maamorim- he may modify his opinion.
Truly, this is another obstacle in the path- which we will overcome.
(5/10/2009 6:08:10 PM)
180
An Australian Perspective
Gentlemen,

Following on Rabbi Telners shabbos drosho, that Rabbi Akivah's talmidim whilst wanting their fellow talmidim to follow what each thought was the right derech al pi halacha, in fact ended in failure and worse.

One could therefore by extension conclude that having something rammed down ones throat which is not based on halacha, rather a hergesh and even then, ones own definition of a hergesh (which could very well differ in intensity between one individual to another even in similarly agended persons) certainly could not be better than what Rabbi Akivah's talmidim were trying to achieve.

The moral is that that no one should "krich yener in kop" by "being in your face" rather they should leave well enough alone when issues on hand are not inyanim of halacha or contravention of Shulchan Oruch. In other words .."if it aint broke, don't fix it".

The proof is in the pudding...

Show me one person....even one...... who has been mekarev to Chabad due to the Yechi slogans who would not/could not have been mekarev otherwise and I'll show you 20+ ...make that 50+ who have either been turned off, others who were not Chabad but were Chabad sympathiseres, but are now ambivalent or worse.

It's not even a case of one step forward and two back.

It's 10 steps back....... consistently!
(5/10/2009 10:56:36 PM)
181
to 172
the rebbe always saw himself as an extension of the frierdiker rebb
(5/11/2009 3:26:50 AM)
182
to: An Australian Perspective
interesting but soo wrong,

if you are knowledgeable of the Torah sources on the topic

and dress and talk like a mentch, you'll be surprised at the results of a well presented sensible discussion on the matter of the rebbeh as moshiach

it all works neetly together to lead the openminded listener to 1) Jewdaism, 2) Chasidus, 3) Chabad 4) the synthesis of all the above in the reality of the immeinant geula via the Rebbeh as moshiach,

it actually makes the entire scope of yidishkeit come together!
(5/12/2009 11:15:48 AM)
183
a chossid perspective
RM Klein is a Rebbe's shliach

My neshomo , my life was lost, after being A farbrente brain washed Moshichist for many many years, The Rebbe saved me,
Yes, it was impossible to go out from this brain wash, only the Rebbe saved me, learning sichos, Maamorim, davening, I was zoche to find out ,that I could be a billion times better Chossid, being a Rebbe's chossid,not a Moshiach's chossid
I don't need my Rebbe to be Moshiach to be his chossid,aderaba, I LOVE the REBBE because the Rebbe. I have my personal feeling that the Rebbe maybe is going to be Moshiach,just a private feeling.
Rabbi M Klein is doing an amazing thing with his teshuva
Raboisai, you can save literally your life and your family life
Rabbi M Klein is just doing a Rebbe's shlichus,
He is talking to Moshichistm and to Crazy Antis (yes, do not make of the Ohel a new religion1)
(5/12/2009 1:45:10 PM)
184
RK means well
but is clearly in the minority on this matter,

even when compared to the litvish gedolim,

case in point R. Miller of Toronto (posek) was forced to admit in public that the belife of moshiach min hameisim is within the pail of Jewish orthodoxy!!

and was forced to publicly retract his venomous statement against chabad, calling its belief in the Rebbeh as moshiach as baseless and Apikursus!

many so called gedolim, were similarly forced to retract their impulsive statements which were based on HERGESH not Torah-sources!!

i predict that soon, a retraction from this Rabbi too is on its way, as he is inundated with numerous torah sources backing and supporting the mesianist in chabad!!

R Majesky's collection of sources, is a must read!!
(5/12/2009 3:48:47 PM)
185
i agree re R Majesky's =must read!!
R Majesky's collection of sources, on inyonei geula etc is CERTAINLY a must read!!

UNLESS YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED IN RE-CONSIDERING YOUR ENTIRE BELIEF SYSTEM!!
(5/12/2009 5:20:11 PM)
186
Yup Learning = believing!
You can be the greatest talmid chacham on the planet, but if you dont know something you can still be wrong!!

clearly R.Klein is a great scholar in most day-to-day halachic issues, yet has probably less knowledge on this subject than those who follow the rebbe's request, TO LEARN LEAR LEARN "INYONEI GEULA UMOSHIACH" daily
mah tov borabim!! (i wonder why)
(5/12/2009 5:51:28 PM)
187
learn inyonei geula...
learn inyonei geula... you'll be just fine
(5/12/2009 6:05:49 PM)
188
chossid perspective
I am sorry, but this "collection of sources" is twisted
You cannot twist things to accomodate beliefs
one thing is chassiddishe hergesh, but you cannot twist Totah to accomodate this
(5/13/2009 2:34:11 AM)
189
point
The point that Rav Klein is making is that the following belief is prohibited.
A man came and was established as the Mashiach (say chezkas) in his life time. He then died (the way we define it-even R. Y. hanosi died). Then this same man will be resurected and continue his mission. This is what christianity believes not judaism. It isd repugnent.

yes. A man can come from teh dead and be the Mashiach as long as we believe he never started as one. if so, the previous Rebbie can and even this one. but, then why name someone. Let us pick others. who cares then who he is.
But, to have voted him as chezkas and then die and still be awaited is apikursis for our religion. This is stated no where.

Eli weisel once said "an objective chosid cannot be a chosid" The Lubavitcher need deprogramming. Yes. we will wait for the Mashiach. But, enoygh craziness. I have even seen some say that he never died. They part the road in 770 for him. Is this not getting out of hand?
(5/13/2009 4:42:54 AM)
190
point
I wrote the last post because I see (almost) no one read closely what he said. He did not say what rav Miller said. He was responding to a kuntres sent to him. There is nothing to retract. People will annoy him that is another matter.

He is not presenting hatred or repeating the old arguments. Neherag velo mes has nothing to do with what he is discussing. The rebbie is not disqualified. It just turns out that he never was the Mashiach (chezkas or vaadai) in actu. He is at square one. Maybe and maybe not he was the potential one while alive. But, then he points out there are many other candidates. and, just like I would like (say) Dovid hamelech himself and do not scream yechi then the chasidim should not. I would make no sense nor do they. It is just wishful thinking.
Just say ani maamin and wait for the one G-d will choose when the time comes .And, let it be soon. Amen. But, please do not act nuts or entertain outsiders.
(5/13/2009 5:42:28 AM)
191
point
Let me point out what I see after learning many of the Rebbie's sichos. He talked about everything. He has at least 4 sichos where he discusses the rambam's opinion. He learns him like te abarbanel does that the Mashiach will come before techiyas hamesim. That is the seder. The Abarbanel asks how can the rambam say there will be no change in the order when techiyas hamesim is the biggest? The abarbanel discagrees with teh rambam and says taht after the Mashiach comes there will be a change in phase two. The rebbie put taht into the rambam himself. now, the theologians in Lubavitch want to distort and show the rambam also learnd min hamesim is possible. It shows that the Mashichists will say anything to believe. The Rebbie was not the mashiach. at best, he was the one in the generation.

Let me finally add the following historical note. I read the writings of many Shabsoim (Cardoza) and let me tell you that the Torah of those people are being repeated. The last time we have such a theology was in the time of Shabasi tzvi. They also debated this Rambam. They also made him a melech and so on. The Mashichists should learn these books. it will save time. He also was chezkas Mashach and died. The fact that he was not religious was also explained. One can believe anything.
(5/14/2009 2:14:04 AM)
192
To kollel for life
you make no sense at all..but hey you go learn your fanataic judaism...i always learnt that judiasim was a religion that was not extremist but you...your totally changing that.....ever heard of dirah bitachtonim...making this world a world for Hashem not just sitting over your shtender and learning (not that im saying thats a bad thing) but you need to open your eyes and look at the world...im a teenager and i see lots of kids my age going off the derech because of people like you
(5/16/2009 3:56:50 PM)
193
to #192
I am "point". I never learned in a kolel. I daven in a Lubavitcher place and know them all. Yes, I learn. And, that is why I am not taken in. I studied the sichos which most Lubavitcher do not understand. It is byond them. This is why they fell into a trap.
I am sorry that teenagers need such thelogy to thrive.
(5/19/2009 7:16:16 AM)
194
to 69
Davka Farkert. BECAUSE He is Your Rebbe, That's
why you Should Belive He is moshiach, especeially when he fits the crieteria To be worthy of being moshiach, which the Rebbe M"HM certainly Does. It Says That you are Supposed to belive your Rebbe to be moshiach. The Students of The Arizal, Besht and others belived Thie Rebbe's to be Moshiach.
(6/1/2009 9:16:21 AM)
195
to 174
the rebbe would stress hundreds of times that the frierdiker rebbe's neshoma is down here , on earth,helping his chassidim.
(6/2/2009 3:43:40 AM)
196
alright, enough!!
you might not agree with him, but were all jews, just with different beleives. he is a great rabbi, just he thinks different than us, chabd chassidim. some of these comments are disgasting.
(6/24/2009 12:31:54 AM)
197
B/c of some looser...
B/c of some looser, who is jealos that he didn't have a rebbe, u r going to go against everything the rebbe, nosi hador, and novi and father begged us to do... Because for sure he knows better right???!!!!!?!! I don't belive u can call urself a chassid if u can say these words: "rebbe, I know ur nearly hear, I know everything u told us re. moshiach, but never the less, I am going to not care about u, all u were is a great godol that helped for 40 yrs and left us nice memories (CH'V) and I am going to listen to this looser"- say those words infront of a picture of the rebbe, and if u can... U r truly not a chossid!!!!!
(11/22/2009 10:49:05 AM)
What's Your Opinion? Post a Comment
Title:

Your Comment:


Comments must be approved before being published. Thank You!

Make COLive® your homepage | Contact Us
© 2014 COLLIVE.com