Apr 9, 2013
No Need to "Go" to College
Illustration photo by Evangelos Dousmanis / Binghamton University

Op-Ed: Without getting into why college is not a place for a frum Jew, a blogger explains why "going" to college is not a must for career-minded Lubavitchers.

By Elad Nehorai

There's this myth that I've been hearing about a lot recently: A person needs to go to college and has no chance of providing for him or her family without it.

I've heard this from a few Lubavitchers that I've met that have been looking for jobs and found their skills sorely lacking, and their resumes too short.

To be sure, this is an issue as the Rebbe emphasized the campus scene and liberal academic thinking is not an ideal place for a frum Jew. I do know this: Technically, no one needs to go to college to get a good job or to make money.

To be sure, if someone wants to become a doctor or a lawyer, the person will have to go to college and beyond. But, especially today, college is increasingly becoming less important.

Why? Because the world is changing. Changing faster than colleges have been able to cope with. The rise of the internet, of mobile technology, and more, has resulted in a world where the necessary skills for employment can be learned on one's own. All while not putting a person into debt or having to be in an unholy environment.

This article, then, is an attempt to just give you an idea of what's outside of college, and where you can go to gain important skills. Don't think of it as definitive, but it will hopefully be helpful.

Below, I'll be listing various professions that are in high demand whose skills can be gained almost exclusively through the internet.

Computer Programmer:

It's fascinating that the Rebbe wanted to create programs in Crown Heights for people to look computer programming because today, more than ever, programming is in such high demand, and companies are so desperately looking for employees in this area, that a college degree is almost completely irrelevant in the search process. All that matters is skill.

Thankfully, there are a slew of incredible sites to learn this skill. Here are just a few:

Codecademy: Their slogan is "Teaching the world to code," and there's really no better description than this. Codecademy uses hands-on learning to take you from a beginner to an expert in coding. You can learn everything from Javascript to Python.

Code School: For a more classroom-like learning environment Code School is great. They have video classes and more, and you can even learn how to build iPhone apps here, perhaps one of the most coveted skills of the new economy.

Treehouse: Treehouse is an incredible site that teaches you to, "Learn to build websites, create iPhone and Android apps, code with Ruby on Rails and PHP, or start a business." Yeah. Check it out.


Thanks to the advent of Photoshop, Illustrator, and other computer design tools, learning to be a designer has never been easier. Here are a few places you can learn from:

Tuts+: Tuts+ (short for Tutorials Plus) is perhaps one of the most comprehensive websites for learning creative skills with multiple sections full of articles, ebooks, and, more. Check out Psdtuts+ to learn how to use Photoshop, Vectortuts+ to learn how to use Illustrator, and Webdesigntuts+ to learn web design. There are many more areas within also, so make sure to do some exploring.

Smashing Magazine: Smashing Magazine is one of the best places to learn design (as well as coding, but it is known more for design). Like Tuts+, much of their content is free, and you can learn from beginner to advanced lessons.

Lynda: Lynda is really great for learning just about anything, but particularly design. It contains countless instruction videos for a variety of skills, and, if you're dedicated, can have a huge payoff.

Online Marketer:

There are a lot of frum people that I see that are very interested in getting into marketing. The only problem is, they assume that because they know how to use Facebook that they are now social media experts.

Here are a few tools that will take you from a user to an expert:

Reading and writing: Yeah, you heard me. If you want to be a marketer, especially online, you need to be a great writer. Being a great writer makes you an invaluable part of a team, and is the only way your marketing will ever be polished. And the only way to do that is to read and write a lot. Forget learning rules of grammar and all that: what really matters is learning how to make your writing flow and sound natural.

Copyblogger: The fastest growing form of online marketing these days, one that, if you learn, will keep you way ahead of most of your competition, is content marketing. Content marketing is essentially about creating valuable media to an audience that will eventually become customers. The best blog to learn this skill is Copyblogger. Their website is genius, and their work is informative. They also provide ebooks and online courses.

SEOmoz: Whether you want to only focus on SEO, or you want to do another form of marketing, SEO is an essential skill to learn as a marketer. And SEOmoz is the best place to learn this skill. Besides their invaluable blog, they also have a vibrant community of SEOs and an area specifically called "Learn SEO."

Distilled: Distilled, partners with SEOmoz, are one of the top online marketing firms, and their blog is a wellspring of essential information for anyone that wants to do online marketing.

Notice how I didn't include any straight social media blogs? Here's why: social media blogs are a joke. They don't provide any good information, except for extremely basic info you'll find in all the blogs mentioned above, without the deep analysis. If you want to do social media do me a favor: Understand that online marketing is a deep field and it's not something you're going to be an expert at overnight.

Online University Courses

Okay, so you still want the experience of going to college? You're in luck. There are amazing startups and organizations being created to help people take courses from the best universities in the country. Here are some great websites for getting the great content of college courses, without all the hassles involved:

Coursera: Perhaps the leading online college platform, Coursera was started by two computer science professors from Stanford University. Coursera has grown enormously since its founding and now provides classes in engineering, humanities, medicine, biology, social sciences, mathematics, business, computer science, and more.

edX: edX has gotten the most press in this arena, mostly because it was started by Harvard and MIT. All classes are free. Although you can't get a degree from the courses, they can provide invaluable skills from two of the top schools in the nation.

Open Culture: This is just a great website. It doesn't have actual online classes, but links to many, and also has links to places for free language learning, free textbooks, free eBooks, and more.

The End/Beginning

Okay, everyone, that's it. As I said, there's much more that could be shared, and maybe some people could share some ideas in the comments. But the point here is to show how much education is becoming available online, and much of it will help make you employable.

---This blog post is by Elad Nehorai, otherwise known as the blogger Pop Chassid. You can read more of his work on his blog and his Facebook page.

Most Read Most Comments

Opinions and Comments
well that's a very good point. It might also be kidai to mention that most wealthy frum yiddin (there are many) haven't ever stepped foot in college.
(4/9/2013 11:49:05 PM)
What's next? Maybe we should stop going to Yeshiva b/c we can learn everything online?!
(4/9/2013 11:58:39 PM)
number 1
the reason they didnt go to college is becuz they found a way to make money without it
(4/10/2013 12:03:48 AM)
online college
Online college goes twice as fast as campus, and has fewer breaks. I know this because I am a year into online college and you have to be very VERY motivated to do online college, not to mention that you will have to spend hours in front of the computer. I am really enjoying myself and learning a lot! I love the fact that I can choose my own hours to do homework! Online college is not for everyone and requires one to be 100% into that kind of set up.
(4/10/2013 12:13:14 AM)
to number one
and what about the many frum wealthy that DID go to college!
(4/10/2013 12:19:55 AM)
Real money is in business and real estate
"Higher education" just brings about a mountain of debt for a nice paper which may eventually pay a comfortable salary, which is then saddled with said mountains of debt for years to come. Totally not worth it
(4/10/2013 12:21:58 AM)
Agree with number 2
Firstly, in your opening discussion, you clearly state that not all careers are an option if one does not attain a degree. Why should someone be involved in a profession where their heart is not. Additionally, in recent years, opportunities for pursuing a degree in "kosher" environment have been increasing. For instance, there are two colleges that offer completely "kosher" atmosphere to study in (non-coed, all Jewish students and professors etc). Finally, you make an unfortunate mistake in that you compare online school to in-class study. For some, it might be the same, but most find online classes to not be as beneficial.

However, your point about going to college is not the only way to make a parnasa is certainly true. However, one cannot deny that it certainly give a person a "better" chance.

Unfortunately, it appears that your arguments are very childish in the kindest of words. It's one things to say studying secular studies is wrong (and there is much validity to that statement). However, to say it useless to go to college and that it doesnt have its perks is complete rubbish.
(4/10/2013 12:25:32 AM)
To #7
Author of the post here.

"Unfortunately, it appears that your arguments are very childish in the kindest of words. It's one things to say studying secular studies is wrong (and there is much validity to that statement). However, to say it useless to go to college and that it doesnt have its perks is complete rubbish. "

Two questions:

1. Where did I say that? (hint: I didn't)

2. Do you think it is appropriate to use such attacks (ie "childish in the kindest of words") when making a comment on a post on a Chabad website?
(4/10/2013 12:46:16 AM)
Not true
Most of the jobs listed above simply cannot provide the income needed to support a large family. It is important to be accurate so someone does not get the wrong idea. For example, blogging or doing SEO to earn a respectable living is a fallacy.
(4/10/2013 12:53:10 AM)
mazal...............y'all forgot about mazal...........
mazal is from the Aibishter................y'all forgot about that too........
(4/10/2013 12:56:15 AM)
Binyamin N
Problem is you cant have a community comprised exclusively of online marketers, programmers, graphic designers and sales people.

In the real world, a functioning first-world society requires doctors, dentists, pharmacists, nurses, engineers, scientists, architects, farmers, machinists, attorneys, pilots, accountants, and therapists just to name a few.

To pretend as if those with a college degree are no better off than their degree-less counterparts, is wishful thinking. Much study has been conducted about this subject, and while it is true that many people without a formal education are able to achieve great financial success, the odds are stacked against them.

It is not a coincidence that the least educated Jewish communities are also the most impoverished and heavily dependent on government assistance.

While it is also true that technology has closed the gap and provided access to educational material otherwise inaccessible in the past, most people are not self-starters and require an actual academic environment in order to truly excel.

Instead of crowning the internet as the ultimate panacea, why not promote the creation of actual frum educational institutions which can teach our children things like science and medicine -- and computer programming.

Just a thought.
(4/10/2013 12:56:53 AM)
Chaim Dovber
What is wrong with wanting to be a doctor or lawyer, they should be more than acceptable option
(4/10/2013 1:01:28 AM)
Online College Best
I did this years ago.

1) Better recignized degree than in Jewish colleges

2) No influence from less chassidish students.

3) Cheaper

4) But you have to make sure the subjects are Kosher too (often they aren't in Jewish colleges, goyishe psychology, etc.).
(4/10/2013 1:11:30 AM)
To #7
He didn't say it can't provide benefits - he just said that it's not a must, and there are many other legit options. I don't see how what he's saying differs from what the Rebbe says, and I wouldn't call it childish. Isn't chassidus full of statements to the effect of birchas Hashem he taashir? Granted, you must make a kli - and that's exactly what the author is offering.
(4/10/2013 1:12:09 AM)
Follow up
As a follow up i'd like to add that I do agree with your suggestion, #7, that the "kosher" colleges are an option in certain situations, but even those shouldn't be a given, as can be understood from what the Rebbe says.
(4/10/2013 1:14:14 AM)
Even Chabad schools pay more or require/encourage college education nowadays...

Ironic that the same institutions that taught us how college is a big no-no now pushes us to go just to be able to teach Kodesh to pre-schoolers... Pathetic indeed...
(4/10/2013 1:19:18 AM)
to #2
I'll tell you why:
Both yeshiva and college have 2 (main) aspects (that are relevant to this discussion), and they are the "academics" and the "atmosphere/environment".
The "academics" in both places are a "+" (for that stage in life, at least), whereas the "atmosphere/environment" in one is a "+", and a "-" in the other.
So, therefore, being people who seek positive aspects in our lives, we will always embrace "academics" but not always embrace "atmosphere/environment".
I.e. the "atmosphere/environment" in yeshiva is a positive one and so we try to find ourselves there, and that of college is a negative one and we try to avoid it!!
...this is kind of obvious, but I hope I answered your questions.
(4/10/2013 1:26:28 AM)
to #14
(4/10/2013 1:30:07 AM)
one small problem,, in order to take courses on line you need some sort of degree, or even if you don't you need some sort of basic english (reading / math etc,,) skills background, which many people don't have,,,
so this whole article is a waste of time,,,,
(4/10/2013 1:56:53 AM)
Not every one is likes the professions that are available without college education. A person working in a profession that he doesn't like will never make it big. A young man looking for a source of parnassa should get into a field that he has interest and only then he has a chance of success. Looking for jobs that are one size for all is not a solution, it is in fact a aggravation of the problem.
Today there are many alternatives for a frum person to earn a degree and bring money, with honor, for his household. Every youngerman that is not cut up for business or to be a kli kodesh should look into a profession of his liking and get a degree.
(4/10/2013 2:02:32 AM)
If u cant get yourself to learn in yeshiva u cant get yourself to learn in collage.

Effort has to be put into learning for it to be successful no matter what type of earning it is.

If you ware in yeshiva and didnt put effort into learning it is gone be very hard to put effort in collage
(4/10/2013 2:06:05 AM)
The only option for not going to college is programming, which isn't for everybody. There is no other actual high paying career, that will hire someone with an online degree, period.
I go to Touro. Boys and girls on on separate days, and the professors are almost all religious, so the environment isn't the problem. If you would argue that the subjects are a problem, I'd answer that online colleges are no better.
I can sleep at night knowing I won't be living from food-stamp to food-stamp.
(4/10/2013 2:41:56 AM)
A great way for a Lubavitcher to get a BAS www.mji.edu 248 414 6900
(4/10/2013 3:22:40 AM)
Thanks Elad
YES! for those who need money and are looking for an appropraite way to make a Kli this is fantastic!

Don't forget that bochurim are not meant to be studying anything besides torah (If one is mature and capable enough to study college online, there must be something they can learn in Torah)
But for Kollel Yungelait this is perfect! Minimal Fees and maximum results. Since you choose your hours you can also have a side job.

Easy? No
Stress Free? No
The most appropriate way to make a Kli for hashems blessings? Definately

Pop Chassid Rocks
(4/10/2013 3:37:36 AM)
to number 1
Unfortunately, the author of this article misrepresented the purpose of college. For that matter, many people misplace the goal of getting a degree. The purpose of college is not just (or shouldn't be with the intention of just making money) Many individuals that attend college do so because they feel they can contribute to society by working in certain professions. Thus, to argue that many people become rich without going to college doesn't lessen the positive impact that college has on a person.
(4/10/2013 4:31:56 AM)
Don't agree

I am not going to discuss what the Rebbe said because we all know the Rebbe didn't want people to go to college.

But getting to the article, you are limiting what people can do. Not everyone is good at marketing, design etc., and many people struggle to study online. You are probably going to say that if they dont want to do online courses they don't want it bad enough, but its not true. Not everyone is able to read a book and able decode everything that they are reading.

Look at all the successful people that didn't go to college and are not on Shlichus. I think that if we decided to make a graph you would find that the street smart people did really well. The book smart people did well. But people who are of average intelligence are not doing so well because they can't get average jobs. So lets not quote the few very successful people.

Last off according to Halacha you are supposed to teach your son a skill, but it seems that that is lost on most people and it becomes the child's problem to figure it out. If this is what the child wants mayleh. But there are plenty out there that feel really let down. I

I challenge those who want the yungerleight to follow the Rebbes Hayrois to create a fund that will support the average family who didn't go to college and are struggling.

Put your money where your mouth is, then we might take you more seriously.
(4/10/2013 4:33:42 AM)
Thank G-d for #11
I kind of get the feeling that the people who are anti-college, and write articles such as these don't understand the idea of feeling satisfaction in your job.
Why, in the Chabad community, has it become a crime to be passionate about your career? Why is it shameful for someone to want to work, to chas vsholom enjoy their occupation?? To a certain degree, yes, we work to put food on the table. And if that's all you want, then the above suggestions that accomodate computer programmers and the such can work, because there's no passion involved, merely survival.
But what about lubavitchers that want to be a doctor because that's what they're interested in? I know it must be a novelty, but some people need to go to college so they can make a career in something that they love. For them, and I believe there is a high percentage of people who want this, although they are too greatly stigmatised against, going online or being a salesperson is not going to work for them! I myself am Chabad, and sometimes I feel like no one 'gets' the idea of wanting to work, of wanting to have an ambitious, lucrative, and interesting career! End of rant.
(4/10/2013 4:45:32 AM)
no 11 says it perfectly
Comment nr. 11 - couldn't say it better.
(4/10/2013 4:46:16 AM)
Number 7 follow-ups
Again, the fundamental idea that is missing in this articles is that many people don't pursue a degree just to make a living. While there are certainly people who do go to college for employment reason, there are several of us individuals who believe that by getting a degree it will better serve our communities and society ( teachers, doctors, therapist, psychologist, counselor etc). For all our problems, we have to outsource, why not create our own. Im not saying a person can't be a great teacher without going to school, but it more likely that the individual will gain the skills to be a good teacher in school.

Also, I won't argue whether it is more appropriate nowadays to go to college or not. Firstly, I'm not a Rav nor do I want to give ill-advice. However, there is no question that there are several options that minimize much of the concerns that were raised in the earlier years. Secondly, is it better to be in real-estate than be a nurse or doctors. Hopefully, everyone would agree that the later is more noble and praiseworthy.

Finally, although it true that one need not attend college to make a decent living, its certainly easier to make a steady paycheck if one goes to school. There is no question. Look around at all the struggling individuals in Crown heights.
(4/10/2013 4:49:20 AM)
To 4/13
Unfortunately, you fail to share the whole story concerning on-line school. While I agree that online school does work well and is convient for some. However, for many, its not an option, especially for those that have no prior experience in the heavy sciences or maths. Its simply not an option to be self-taught. Furthermore, most people don't have the drive to teach themselves, just take a look at how many people push themselves to their max in yeshiva. To clarify, I'm not blaming or placing fault on anyone; I'm just stating the reality.

Finally, I would suggest looking a little more carefully into online school being more credible than regular universities. Please, tell me one person that got a degree from an online university and got a M.D. or P.H.D. Granted there are quite a few that get masters degrees; however, most good PHD, MD nursing programs etc. won't take online degree.
(4/10/2013 4:57:36 AM)
The author makes a very valid point
The only thing is, those who were critical were actually quite correct in their assessment of the topic. There are many valid professions which simply require a legitimate university degree in order to be successful in that given field. And while it is true that there are many frum and Chassidishe people who BH have done well for themselves without receiving a college education, that alone should not serve as a basis for everyone across the board. In fact, if one were to use that as proof, it would come across as being quite naive. Although the truth is, and this is in fact where frum people are, for the most part in my opinion, at an advantage, is that there is already have an idea of what career you want to pursue, and henceforth one can choose to pursue that option. In the secular world, even very bright people, and let us not forget those who do not have 4.0 GPAs, will go through four years of college without a clue in the world as to what they want to do once they graduate. The result? A whole lot of student loan debt and some random degree that they don't know what to do with. This is where being frum and believing in the Aibishter come in. Because ultimately, the true source of your parnossa will come, in the exact allotment which you need, from the Creator of the Universe, in the right time, ect. We have to make the keli for that bracha of parnossa. Hence, if someone decides resolutely to pursue a career which by default requires them to "go" to college, that shouldn't be completely and incontrovertibly negated. (Particularly if the person was married, where many of the arguments for the lewdness of campus factoring in are irrelevant. I also heard from individuals that the Rebbe specifically told them to go to university following their marriage, although of course individual circumstances vary.) I applaud those who adhere to the methods that were laid out in this article, and I wish them all the best. I just think that everyone is unique, and to label exactly how and where they can or should choose to make their livelihood is simply illogical and ultimately unfair to the individuals subject to those whims.
(4/10/2013 5:10:03 AM)
Exactly, in other words you can find another way of making money without going to college.
(4/10/2013 5:10:47 AM)
Thank you
This article provided interesting information.
(4/10/2013 5:16:53 AM)
chanino sperlin went to college ?!
sholom ber drizin went to college ?!
reb zalmen gurary ob"m went to college ?!

and many many more wealthy people that they never went to college, so this is the reality: that college and money are NOT connected to each other.
(4/10/2013 5:17:10 AM)
Even Computer Programming requires a degree
The haves will always have the advantage over the have nots even when it comes to a computer science degree. A college degree from a real university will always beat out one from an online university. And that's what one must consider. What you know is not enough. Employer's what to know where you learned it. Telling them lynda.com will not impress them but telling them Rhode Island school of design for example will. If they have to choose between Harvard university or even queens college and Phoenix online university, it will be a quick decision. Who you know is also important. Contacts are not readily available through online courses. Meeting people in a college setting can introduce you to friends you might make and keep the rest your life who might turn out to be important contacts in your field that will help you along in your career. Also, colleges offer trade fairs and career placement. I am not saying that all this is worth the money spent and the debt earned from expensive colleges, one has to be careful in this day and age to find the best value for what he wants to do and for what he can afford, but online resources still do not impress employers even in the year 2013. Sure, one is welcome to learn flash, or c plus plus, or java and then build his own applications or websites but not everyone can be the next mark zuckerberg (who went to Harvard incidentally) or the next bill gates (also Harvard).
(4/10/2013 5:25:51 AM)
Some thoughts
Big difference between learning Yiddishkeit which must be received from a Baal Mesorah and popular web programming technologies that most people even high school kids can learn online. You don't need college for a tech career and it's better to avoid it because there are no kosher colleges.

But the net is a very dangerous place and young men and women need supervision when learning online also.
(4/10/2013 5:48:48 AM)
responding to Binyamin at 11
While a self contained hermetically sealed community must have all professions from Appraisers to Zoologists, this author is not envisioning such a society. There is nothing wrong with our community having a disproportionate number of people involved in a handful of careers and jobs. It always was so, in all communities. Jews were overrepresented in the shmattah trade, italians in tile-works and wrought iron, etc. This concept is even more appropriate now, when I can sell the fruit of my labor (in internet and computer trades) to people I never met, and never will meet. Yesh lihaarich, viein kan hazman.

Hatzlacha to all.
(4/10/2013 6:19:22 AM)
To the author
I argue this very point to lots of young (and not so young people). You write very well. But ultimately, if a Lubavitcher is not going to go to college, it's because the Rebbe said no. Perhaps to include in your essay that chochmos chitzoyniyos are mitamtem halev vihmoiach.
(4/10/2013 6:20:36 AM)
To Binyamin N - number 11

To Binyamin N:

You make some valid points.

But consider:

It is become more and more accepted in conventional wisdom that going to college does not equal success, financial or otherwise. This has nothing to do with frumkeit or Judasim or the Rebbe. It just isn't what it used to be in terms of security in finding (good) employment.

This has been reported and written about extensively in the past years. The author touched on this, but perhaps he does not stress this enough.

Another point is that of all college graduates there is a significant percentage of people who struggle financially or worse. I strongly question your assertion that the level of poverty is higher in the Jewish community. Please back this up with real proof. (not the demographic of Brooklyn, Monsey or Lakewood please -- the general frume "uneducated" world).

You must also consider our large families KA"H (yes, another foundation of ours that has sadly come under assault of late).
(4/10/2013 6:42:16 AM)
It's funny that you mostly hear about the poverty crisis, tuition crises, etc rather than the "wealth" crisis in the community.
(4/10/2013 7:26:19 AM)
What's what
What yeshiva teachers kids how to read and write effectively in any language?
(4/10/2013 7:34:02 AM)
Sure, there are ways to make money without going to college. But on average, those with a college degree make more money than those without. It's a matter of simple statistics. If you want to take a chance that no employer will ever turn down your application because you don't have a college degree, go right ahead. But you're in for a sad surprise, I think.
(4/10/2013 7:35:49 AM)
One point to add:
There is a major difference between college and vocational school.Most colleges are not vocational schools and don't provide adequate training for the real world.Many people that finish college come to realize they don't have the necessary skills for high end jobs.There are millions of people unemployed in the US,yet there are millions of high tech jobs that are open and can't be filled, because not enough people have proper training.
The main purpose of college is to train people had to act and think ,not how to make money.Based on this you can understand why the Rebbeh was so against it.Frum people should learn had to act and think from the Torah alone,therefore college in general is unnecessary.If you need training in a specific profession,there are many options besides college,although sometime that may be the only option.The Rebbeh was against Chabad building schools dedicated to secular education,but not against building vocational schools...
(4/10/2013 7:41:55 AM)
College vs business
Definitely you don't have to go to college to make a Parnassa for a large family
But not everyone is cut out for entreupreunership
If you have to work for someone else you need skills , and from college and university you get paid better
(4/10/2013 7:45:40 AM)
Government Jobs
Welfare, Medicaid, Section 8, Foodstamps, CILOCA, Headstart, and other programs are a stable source of Parnassah for many residents of Crown Heights.
(4/10/2013 8:18:01 AM)
Depends on what you want
All the options above cannot provide a carreer. If that's what a person wants, then he must go to university to get degree. or a trade school to get a trade.
A person must also be blessed with mazal. Yes!!!!
The best segulah for parnassa is to get up, get working and get a job. This segulah works!!!!
Young boys, figure out what you want and then go for it. But remember, whatever it will be, in order for success, you will need to work hard, very hard and harder still!!!!! Even if you're very talented in the area that you are working towards whether it be the arts, trade, skill or carreer, you gotta work hard in order to succeed.
The biggest problem with our boys is that they never tasted success so they have no idea what it takes to get there. Remember, success is only a possibility if failure is an option. Our boys have never failed at anything and therefore have no idea what it takes, ........ but when the boys go to university, although it has many disadvantages for a frum boy, the boys can't get over the feeling that when they work hard and get high marks and are therefore able to get into a program that they otherwise would have never been able to enter. They taste success!!!! They are then driven to try hard and work harder!!! And succeed!!!! And it goes on to every aspect of their lives.... dating... marriage.... parenting.... every area of their lives that they want to succeed in, they realise that they will have to put in 100% in order to succeed.
(4/10/2013 8:28:35 AM)
You forgot to mention Udacity.com. Another free website with courses from colleges.
(4/10/2013 8:46:23 AM)
To earn a BA you can also do CLEP tests- which involves studying material on a certain subject and than going in and taking a test on it, its that easy!
(4/10/2013 8:50:39 AM)
Author made another point
I think the author was making another valid, sometimes overlooked point. Technology is changing the world in terms of requirements, skills, AND service delivery. Meanwhile, university degrees have become so commonplace and automatic, that a degree no longer guarantees anything. If you don't believe this, ask ANY university student or recent grad, who is probably now slaving away at a Masters, because without a 2nd degree, you don't stand out from the 1,000's of other graduates, and the jobs are just not there (even in law, even for medical students looking for residencies, etc.). But the REAL WORLD has changed with outsourcing, technological advances, new opportunities that are more skill-based than theoretical-knowledge based. The educational system is lagging behind and has yet to fully adapt to the new reality in the world. Rather than taking on tens of thousands of dollars debt to get a mediocre degree, look for out-of-the-box solutions. They exist. I, for one, applaud the author for providing exciting alternatives to traditional learning settings. Not for everyone, but a blessing for some people!
(4/10/2013 9:02:04 AM)
The SCBWI just had an article in their newsletter, titled something to the effect of You can be a really good illustrator without going to art school. written by a successful illustrator who never received a formal art school training.

she said it was a good way to go, especially due to the great cost involved in art education.

you can learn a lot online like mr nehorai is saying

she had other points too.
(4/10/2013 9:02:47 AM)
Completely disagree
Not that I don't agree with what the Rebbe says; but the comments that the Rebbe made about universities were at a time when there were no Jews on campus and the only option was to live on campus- an option that I think is a bad idea as well! However, nowadays, as frum, Lubavitch university student at a non-Jewish university,, I can say that there is quite a big Jewish community on campus: there are shiurim by Hillel and Chabad daily, shabbos programming, and even a minyan just for frum university students. So, it's not such a 'goyish' atmosphere as you may believe. And, there is the option of living at home so you just need to go to campus for classes! I also think it's ridiculous to limit yourself to the few professions you list- if I have always wanted to become a professor/lawyer/psychologist..etc., then why should I have to limit myself to a few professions which are very over-saturated as it is? Additionally, simply learning skills from an online course does not make you marketable for a job; a resume requires education, internships, professional experiences, etc., which one does not get from an online course. Just to end off: with tuition fees being as high as they are for Jewish schools, you need a very high income, and therefore a computer programmer/ graphic designer will not make even a fraction of what is needed to live in a frum community and send your kids to Jewish schools. There is no use in kidding yourself and saying it will just work out, or you will just accept money from the government or wealthy Jews; that is not a right attitude to have and you can certainly do something about the problem on your own by getting an education!! I am a Lubavitch girl starting graduate school in September after graduating with a bachelors of science from an accredited university, and I can tell you that I learn much more regularly and am more tznius then the majority of my Lubavitch friends who are all teachers. So, do something about the poverty problem in Lubavitch and get an education; you will not "fri" out and you are setting yourself up for a great future where you will be able to afford all the things that you would want for your children.
(4/10/2013 9:03:12 AM)
Just want to shout out:
Whatever your opinion may be concerning this op-ed, I say kudos to Elad Nehorai for his blog work. I really liked his writings, he has a lot of good things to say and express and based on what I read he genuinely means what he writes and has a sensitivity towards many worldly issues that often seem to elude many of us. That having been said, I really respect him for writing this piece and giving us his perspective on issues like these. I'm not saying there isn't what to critique, as evidenced by all the comments above, but whatever the case go check out his blog and see for yourself why this guy is an emeser Yid.
(4/10/2013 9:15:45 AM)
this is ridiculous!!!
(4/10/2013 9:36:25 AM)
why in the frum world has it become like a "sin" to go to college/have a professional job/enjoy it? money eventually has to come from somewhere..
(4/10/2013 9:46:27 AM)
to #34
What about the other 90% of people in CH on food stamps? You cant argue with facts. Bring the Rebbe's opinion as your argument, but don't say college doesn't help, just because of a few lucky people.
(4/10/2013 10:11:12 AM)
Knowledge is Power
The best way to control people is to keep them uneducated
so keep discouraging our youth from making something of themselves.
When the rebbe spoke about not going to college it was at a time when there was no frum colleges. I think the rebbe would change his view now that there are kosher colleges for our children to go to and remain frum. or we can keep discouraging them and they will continue to stray in droves. So you decide
(4/10/2013 10:17:16 AM)
(4/10/2013 10:24:36 AM)
Education should start from young
The problem is in the mindset.
We must start talking to our children when they are young what they would like to be as a professional when they get older and put them on the track to success as a youngster and not wait till they 20 or older to start thinking about what kind of future they will able to provide for their families.

therefore we must start teaching Limudi Chol at 1st grade and give it the proper attention which is needed. Some schools offer it but they at the same time discourage it.
(4/10/2013 10:29:42 AM)
As a shliach on a campus who is close to top level admin, its a known thing that colleges are all looking ato now, where will we be in 10-20 years, so much of the education is going to eEducation, people dont want to go to a full time school, if they can get a degree online, in night classes etc, while working etc. The comments here are so 10 years ago. the Reality is changing, and Universities across the nation are taking note. Great article!
(4/10/2013 10:37:31 AM)
A Rabbi In an Online University
I am currently taking my Masters in Education online. It has been an amazing experience. I have the opportunity to do my studies at my own pace without having to leave my home.

(4/10/2013 10:46:26 AM)
The Rebbe's take
There are so many places that the Rebbe speaks and writes about this so clearly.

One example is Likutei Sichos chelek alef, parshas bishalach.

Perhaps others can share other places we can look.

Let's remeber that we are Lubavitchers and that the Rebbe's directives should guide us regardless of in what direction the winds are blowing...
(4/10/2013 10:51:05 AM)
Careers OUTSIDE of the computer field, too
It's true that not everyone needs to go to college to be successful, but not everyone wants to be or has the skill to be in computers, either. There are MANY options besides these, for example:
Mechanic (auto or other)
Fashion design
Physical therapist (massage)
Medical technologist (X-ray, CAT, EKG, Sonogram)
OSHA inspections
Pharmacy assistant
Real-estate finance
Vision care
Dental appliances creation
Lanscape design

Almost all of of these require less than a year of school. Details about how to learn more and how to get grants for vocational-training tuition are available at the Community Council.

One should also know that on-line "degrees" are pretty much worthless in the real world, as are degrees from universities from far-away schools that you never actually go to. Figure this: If YOU know about the "shortcut" to a degree, wouldn't a professional whose job is hiring people know about it too?

Wishing you Hatzlacha and Bracha in your search for Parnassa!
(4/10/2013 11:01:48 AM)
Just my opinion...
First, #7 hit the nail right on the head. Now to my piece:

This isn't meant to be diatribe against Crown Heights or the greater Chabad community, but from what I am observing here there seems to be disconnect between making money and truly loving what you do in life. I would venture to say that you will not find a single person who feels completely fulfilled in their personal, family, or religious lives who is unhappy day in and out in their professional lives. Our professional lives consume most of our time and energy and the collateral effects of not enjoying what we do, whether you like it or not, will creep its way into our personal and family lives. My father always taught me that it is important to follow my dreams because one day, I would end up doing what I enjoy, it was just dependent on how long it took me to get there.

Our society needs its doctors, lawyer, scientist etc. and if there are a few good men and women whose dreams these are, why should we hold them back?
(4/10/2013 11:12:11 AM)
No Risk
Everyone wants to be assured Parnasah. It is one of the scariest things around, the fear that one can not provide for oneself and ones family.
People are looking for the fail safe key to avoiding such a horrible situation. The author is saying that going to college is not that key. It is not a fail safe option, it might increase ones options and earning power but it won't take away that fear it is not fool proof.
On another point the author made, there is a great free! website which teaches online it is called NewStart Institute. It offers free education in a number of great fields such as 1. Accounting
2. Office Administration
3. Basic Web Programming
4. Browser Programming
5. Server Scripting
6. Computer Graphics
The website is www.educationfree.org
(4/10/2013 11:19:36 AM)
An average family needs 200k a year ( not first 8 years of marriage) just to make it and almost no savings. Most colleges degrees wont make this money either
Times changed, and today or you have a succesfull business or you are stock receiving charity from government programs ,etc
(4/10/2013 11:23:29 AM)
sometimes it takes longer to realize, but ultimately if one follows the Rebbe in all areas (not just the lo taaseh) then he/she sees hatzlacha bgaluy!

many who seem chasidish on the outside are realy not compliant with the Rebbes takanos, yet they wounder why the Rebbe's assurances are not comming through...

(4/10/2013 11:35:54 AM)
Thank You to the author
I am a 20-yr-old lubavitcher girl who always wanted to be a computer programmer but didn't want to go to college against the Rebbe's will, and t herefore I let go of the option.
Now that I read your post I see it might indeed be a possible option, thank you for opening us up to these opportunities in a frum, uncompromising way.
(4/10/2013 11:41:45 AM)
wealthy people are the exception not the rule
Thank you for the articulate and intelligent article. You present many alternate paths to supporting one's family for someone who does not wish to attend college. Although some people have already commented, I'd like to reiterate regarding the extremely wealthy in our community: They are the exception, not the rule. This is very important to recognize. Please don't use these individuals as an inspiration to young people and as an example of not needing college.
(4/10/2013 11:57:14 AM)
so true
It is so true...Jews do not belong in goyish universities or even Jewish ones.....to learn a skill such as computers etc. is a great idea. but not to go through a college system. The Rebbe said many times going to university is like jumping off the ninth floor of a building and hoping to survive....
(4/10/2013 11:57:45 AM)
To 51 and 56
The reason the Rebbe was against college is because of it's secular education,the bad environment is a side issue.The Rebbe made himself perfectly clear about secular knowledge,that it is against Halacha .If someone needs it for a specific reason,than their are heterim based on the circumstances.
College is essentially a social engineering school for liberal ideology.The reason people think it's about making money, is because of years of propaganda fed to us by the students of that very ideology.If you think college is so good for an economy ,how come so many people are without jobs today?In the past 25 years, America has lost millions of jobs overseas because of all the good college students who where either not trained enough or not willing to do those jobs.This problem has been addressed even by the secular media.
The problem we have in Lubavitch is not a lack of secular education,but a lack of any eduction.If the yeshivas where run right and would teach Torah properly,than adjusting to outside world would be so much easier.However,many Yeshiva Bachurim use Yeshiva as an excuse to be lazy and irresponsible,which then leads to poverty.If Bachurim came out of yeshiva with proper discipline and analytical skills,then they could turn that into a work ethic and make a living.True some people want a specific profession and may need a degree of some sort,however most people just want to make ends meet.
This whole college debate in Chabad is another example of the secular infiltration into our thinking.First ,it's go to college,than, it's don't have so many kids,next, its give away land in Israel and soon its shave your beards.If there is anything Chabad teaches us,it's that the heart follows the mind.If we give our mind to the goy, everything else will follow. The Rebbe's words are eternal, and he warned of this slippery slope a long time ago.Shame on any Lubavitcher who changes the Rebbe's words because he or she feels the times have changed.
(4/10/2013 12:07:34 PM)
Hmmm, what about people who want to be lawyers or doctors? I'd like to see someone do that online!
(4/10/2013 12:09:31 PM)
to 68
extremely wealthy ( plus than 100 millions) are the exception
But 10 million is something achievable and a good living for a jew
(4/10/2013 12:26:44 PM)
the problem with online schooling
there is no, and i mean absolutley no, substitute for a real classroom with a real teacher. You can get close to it, but it won't be the same. With that said, there is a lot of problems with online schooling. A lot of them may be less expensive, but because of that, their degrees will not be as accepted when looking for a job. So you just spent two years getting a bachelors in psychology online but what if no one accepts it? I've seen this happen too many times.
the article is correct that there is a lot of opportunities on the internet world,but we can't build a community based just on programmers and online marketers (like number 11 said).
(4/10/2013 12:29:25 PM)
Duby -Toronto
It's repulsive how these psuedo-chabadniks excuse going to college. The Rebbe says not to go to college. No pshetlach. If you lack Bitachon, fine, but don't say that the Rebbe would condone it.

Birkas Hashem He Taashir. If you have bitachon, true bitachon, you'll have parnassa. Trust me. It works. From experience.

The Rebbe doesn't need my or Mr. Nehorai's approbation, but the fact is, I have numerous friends, clients, business associates, etc, who have University degrees on a graduate level who struggle (and they have small families...).

The above posters are, at best, kofrim in Hashgacha Protis. Hashem decides how much you are going to make on Rosh Hashana, and he doesn't base his decision on whether you have a college degree.

Read the Rebbe's letters on going to college and parnassa and you'll be matzliach.

(4/10/2013 12:34:41 PM)
Everyone relax, yes Parnosah is a scary topic, however the Same REBBE that said certain things about university, also spoke 10X about getting a mashpia, so every person should make a private descion together with their family and mashpia about what path they should take. Yes some of the fields mentioned in this article are big money makers especially for the top rated people, however some of those professions are really only able to support a single person and aren't a real long term money maker....
(4/10/2013 12:48:50 PM)
To comment #50
Yes, it is well known that school is a waist for graphic design. However, this is the exception to the rule.
If your going into graphic design then good for you. Just know this, it is a highly competitive field and an underpaid job. If you don't have inborn talent for art don't even try learning.
(4/10/2013 1:16:35 PM)
I agree with.
(4/10/2013 1:23:23 PM)
To all the naysayers:
To those who believe that people should not go to College and quote the numerous letters of the Rebbe on this topic:
The Rebbe has told many people to stay in college, (granted many were Ba'alei teshuvah).
Also, if you have never had the need for the help of a proffesional of any type-i.e., Doctor, lawyer, psychologist, etc., you will have no clue how amazing it is to have a frum lubavitcher to work with. Not that other frum proffesionals are bad, however, when dealing with proffesionals, if they understand you and your culture, they can make your care that much better. Especially when dealing a psychologist, not a psuedo-intellectual lubaivtcher who has read books, but someone who actually has gone through proper training (yes there are many great rabbi's who can help, but it is not the same), they can understand the individual much better.
Despite this, I think everyone agrees that we need Moshiach so we don't have have these tests of da'agus haparnosa.
(4/10/2013 2:08:03 PM)
To #70
Whether you like it or not, we live in a world where secular education is a must in order to make a good living. Yes; there are exceptions- people who do not have an education and made it really big! However, for every single person that succeeded, I can bet you there are about 100 people who do not succeed and are living off food stamps and in government housing. And- even for the few people that do succeed- I can bet you that they need to know how to read and write properly, or have basic math skills; which they would not know how to do at all if they had no secular education whatsoever.

I understand that the Rebbe was against secular education; I am not pro secular education either, I just know that it is necessary in order to make a living in the world that we live in. Even the Alter Rebbe says in the Tanya; One can learn 'Chachams Chitzoinius' if it is for the sake of parnassah; which here it clearly is.

I also agree that university can be a promoter of liberal ideology, but that completely depends on the program that you are in. As a university student, I can tell you that if you are in any program that is remotely science related, you do not learn a thing about liberalism and different ideologies. You learn biology, chemistry, physics, statistics, math, etc...which are not treif whatsoever and if anything, they make you appreciate Hashem and all that He does even more!

I agree with you that Lubavitch has a problem with education; the problem is both in Hebrew education and secular education. However, please tell me how bochurim who graduate with good analytical skills will be able to get a good job, making a minimum of 150 k per year (which is needed nowadays to support a family- as a minimum!) I would love to see a list of employers, both in the Jewish world and the secular world, who would provide stable and high-income jobs for bochurim with no education whatsoever and no professional expereince; who may not even know how to read or write or do basic mathematical calculations. I'm really curious to see who is hiring these people!

I know plenty of university students who are extremely frum; boys with beards and girls that are very tznius, and maybe the only reason there are boys that 'fry' out when in university is that there is such a negative stigma against it, and they feel that they have to rebel in order to go. As a member of a family that promotes university and making a living in today's society, none of my siblings are 'fri' in the least and we are all extremely frum and well-rounded people. So please don't make any assumptions about what university does to you!
(4/10/2013 2:21:31 PM)
i completely agree 100%. the thing about college is that you need to have a plan before you go. A friend of mine always knew he wanted to be a doctor, therefore he has a detailed education plan. he knows he has to go to college for X amount of years, for X amount of classes, he needs X amount of credits, and since he has a goal, he works hard in college, and I think he's ok.
the PROBLEM lies with people who go to college because A-everyone goes to college. B-their friends are going. C-they don't know what else to do. They go to college because it's "normal" but they have no plan. I know people who've gone to college and bounced around from major to major. first they wanted to be a nurse, then they wanted to be a doctor, then they wanted to be an architect, then they wanted to be a personal trainer. ultimately they completely wasted their time. college can be a great experience and a necessity if you HAVE A PLAN, and that plan REQUIRES college. if you don't know exactly what you want to do with your life-college can be a complete waste of time. It would be much more beneficial at 18 to get a steady job, and you can start building life experiences.
also, i'm currently attempting to enter the field of computers. initially i was nervous that i didn't attend college. but i started doing the research and there are THOUSANDS of tutorials on youtube and on line! there are THOUSANDS of books i can get from the library. if you're interested in entering a specialized field, you most likely will be able to find all you need to know online. go ahead and do the research. you'd be surprised at how much info there is out there for free.
Bottom line-before you just jump on the college bandwagon, make sure you know what you want to do, and have a plan. more often than not, college is completely unnecessary. knowledge and experience are more important.
(4/10/2013 2:36:48 PM)
Totally don't get this:
Seriously, how can some of you say that just because Chanina Sperlin and Sholom Ber Drizen made lots of money, and since they didn't have to go to college this will now serve as the basis for EVERYONE not to go to college. So then what, you're left with a bunch of capable yungerleit in Crown Heights who will be yukking about someone else's mazel, so mimeilah it will affect ME the same!? How STUPID is that! And Bill Gates didn't finish college, and look at him? Let's all
(4/10/2013 2:47:26 PM)
...lets all emulate a college drop out who achieved success! Why on earth would you advocate that, as a means of "inspiring" others not to get the education and the tool they need to be matzliach in those professions? This utterly baffles me.
(4/10/2013 2:49:26 PM)
Can someone please explain to me...
How some people say that they believe in Hashgocha pratis and the Aibishter and His brochos, yet bpoel mamosh they sit around and do absolutely nothing to be mamshich any of it? What is allotted on Rosh Hashona is only milmaalah, through our avoidah every single day and our tefilos we make it real and practical bigaluoi. I don't see how living off food stamps when you have five kids and counting in CH is the tachlis of what one was meant to do. Man was created to toil, and we see numerous examples in the Torah and maamorei Chazal how earning a livelihood is an incredibly important thing to do. I poshit don't get how we set ourselves up for failure, and then defend it, saying that this is the rotzon of Hashem, and the focal point of the teachings of the Rebbe. I am not a kofer or an antagonist or for that matter a pessimist; I am simply baffled at the attitude being portrayed in regards to this crucial issue which every single one of us is faced with. Please enlighten me. I await a competent reply.
(4/10/2013 3:03:04 PM)
#11 you are 100% correct
could not agree with you more.
(4/10/2013 3:03:05 PM)
I read all these comments. in order to spare you from that, allow me to sum up everything that everybody said until now.

A- Attending College is not a Necessity Anymore In Order to Earn a Parnassah.
B- In today's day and age, You can learn many many different trades through other avenues such as online school, books, free online tutorials.
C- In General, The Rebbe didn't approve of going to college because of the atmosphere and the "liberal ideology," but nowadays you can get a college degree without exposing yourself to those things through online classes.
C- If you know what you want to do with your life AND you have a dream job as a concrete goal, AND that job requires college, feel free to attend. But if you don't have a concrete plan, college can be a waste of time.
E- Many people go through college, receive a degree, and still have great difficulty finding a job. The relationship between a college degree and getting a job has degraded immensely.
F- If you're interested in a field, It is EXTREMELY important to do the proper research to find out if a college degree is required. If a particular degree is required. Do additional research. How many people with that particular degree end up struggling with finding employment? All the information regarding whether or not a college degree is necessary or not for a particular field can be found easily online. a quick google search can save you years of college, and thousands in student debt.
G- There's nothing wrong with wanting to become a doctor or lawyer or choosing any other field that requires college. The author is simply stating that times have changed, and there are many other viable career options, and viable ways of achieving them than the standard doctor/lawyer etc.
H- MOST IMPORTANTLY, parnassah comes from Hashem and Hashem alone. Ultimately the only thing you need in order to receive a parnassah, is to make an effort. Put in an effort, try your best, make yourself a Keli and G-d will provide. Your educational background makes absolutely no difference as long as you have bitachon and put in the effort.
(comment #62 shares a list of additional careers that don't require a degree)
(39, 43, 49 bring up great points)
(70 has a great pro-rebbe/lubavitch opinion)
(7 and 11 are worth reading as they are brought up again and again as points of agreement or contention)

-Baruch S.
(4/10/2013 3:16:11 PM)
Take a Look
Today there are colleges and universities that are totally NOT mixed so no one has to worry about anything like that.
I love the idea that my children can get a good education and it's not all about making a living although it certainly is a factor.Today men and women want to contribute to society and yes, some want to do research and help other sby becoming nurses, PAs etc and the public can benefit from having frum individuals to "help"them. No one can deny the benefits of a college education. From reading the above I am hopeful that there will be more educated young men for our women who are getting quite educated.Maybe together they can provide a frum life for their children without worrying about food, tuition, clothing and struggling for everything in life and NOT dependent on the gov't.
(4/10/2013 3:30:32 PM)
Agree with 70
and thank you 85. btw, i don't see anyone mentioning, that for certain things a degree from a yeshivah works just fine. I went that route, and only had to take a few classes directly related to my field, and in a much more kosher environment.
(4/10/2013 3:38:29 PM)
I want to know how many families are
torn apart machloikes and CH"V divorce because of the struggles. I would love to send my sons to summer camp this year for one month its over $2,000.

Lets say the truth, there are three categories in Chabad. One, the rich who give their children jobs, b"H for them Im sure their emunah is strong. They are fortunate and why not? I'd do the same for my kids.

Two, many shluchim who run schools and camps built on public money Hekdesh and use their position to give their children jobs and start them off in positions. They also charge exorbitant tuitions and fees to innocent chabadniks, as they want to make a living off the camps and schools while claiming 'not for profit' status. I am sure there are many shluchim tzaddikim who are bottul and ibbergegeben and dont do this or are unable to give their kids jobs too. for those see #3 below.

Three, the rest, you're on your own, or fall between the cracks. There are some smart or lucky enough to take the steps needed to educate themselves and make a parnassah, or like many BTs who became frum with a degree in hand. The rest struggle to survive.

Also, dont forget, 30-40 years ago a bachelor degree was something, yetz its vert gornisht.

Not a simple matter but the author has some good points for those disciplined to study on own, but spending a day on the internet alone according to some Rabbonim is Yichud !!!???

One big point as well is that most other chassidim help each other, patronize each others business, etc in Chabad its each for his own, you face the jungle alone.
(4/10/2013 3:40:04 PM)
To # 79
Your first sentence is exactly what the Rebbe quoted and then proceeded to say it's not true. It's one thing to say you disagree with the Rebbe - but be honest about it. True the wealthy people are the exception, but not everyone must be wealthy. There are thousands of individuals in the community who are comfortably middle class who didn't go to college - that's what we should be looking at. Like number 70 said; the 100 people you refer to are just lazy and unmotivated. That issue stems from a lack of character - not education.
(4/10/2013 3:43:43 PM)
trade schools
aren't there enough other trades that don't require college education but rather trade / vocational school and on the job experience? I feel lucky when I can get a competent plumber to show up for $100 / hr, electrician - $100-120 / hr, and the ones who are reasonably good are booked far in advance. How about general contractors? from the quotes I get, they make more than lots of people with advanced degrees. I'm sure there're lots of other examples
(4/10/2013 3:48:56 PM)
To #83
The argument here is about college,not about working.The secular society has spread this lie that in order to make a living you have to go college.The article and many commentators here are arguing that there are many alternatives to college that would suit the frum community better.You may be right that not enough is done by the system to help people train or find jobs,however that doesn't mean the solution is college.If you believe that B'racha comes from Hashem,why would you place your future in the hands of a university?Better would be to pick profession and get specific training in that field.
(4/10/2013 3:49:39 PM)
yeshiva degrees
I don't think anyone has mentioned that it's possible to get a BA or an equivalent from a yeshiva, and then use it to go for masters degree in many fields after completing some prerequisites. As a matter of fact, the yeshiva Ner Yisroel in Baltimore offers college degrees in partnership with some local college in many fields, and majority of the bochurim there take this option - the whole program is for yeshiva bochurim only, and is approved by the yeshiva. It's quite feasible to get masters in many areas within 2-3 years after that, after gettings married and holding a part time job.
(4/10/2013 3:55:58 PM)
It sounds like the alternative would be to keep relying on the government. And, what is wrong with have a limited number of kids.
(4/10/2013 4:03:59 PM)
83 to 89
Thank you for responding, and I understand what you said. I would just clarify that in light of this forum and some of the above comments, if someone would be determined to go into a specific field which requires a college degree, no strings attached, then I wouldn't say it is placing ones future in the hands of the university in question. Rather, it would be utilizing the keli for which the bracha of parnossa would be nimshoch. I really doubt that viewing every single person attending college automatically constitutes their denial of Hashem providing for us. But once again, and see some of the previous comments where this was brought up, there are people who have no clue what they want in and from college, and takeh that is indeed huge waste of time and mone
(4/10/2013 4:27:16 PM)
-they are a FRUM organization
-they offer undergraduate and graduate degrees
-their undergraduate degree can be done 100% correspondence
-ALL the courses available to be taken are PRE-APPROVED and checked for kosher content
-its waaayyy more affordable than most
-the accreditation is solid
-they accept any and all CLEP tests
(#48 most colleges only accept select ones)
-there are no semesters so you can go as slow or as fast as works for you
(4/10/2013 4:28:03 PM)
To add to 90
Also Morristown smicha offers a BA in Rabbinical Studies, but I think you would have to be there for two years to qualify. In any event, yes, it is quite true that from yeshiva one can progress to work on attaining a Masters degree. I have several friends who went this route, and some went on to law school, and thank G-d are doing quite well for themselves. They are also very frum and Chassidishe mentschen, for all those haters :)
(4/10/2013 4:32:37 PM)
Just go to Columbia and the greatest shluchim Yonah and Keren Blum will take great care of you and you will get a great education too!
(4/10/2013 4:32:55 PM)
kabbalas ol
what about just accepting the fact that he Rebbe said not to surround yourself in an unkosher environment even if you dont understand it??? daven to hahsem! i'm sure he will help find a pernassah without the spectacular resume. many people went to college paid tonz and learned for a looong time...n then werent able to continue with the career they wanted for whatever reason (injured, decided not to, couldnt find job...hashem didn't want them to have that kind of parnassah!)
(4/10/2013 4:36:13 PM)
wow to number 85!!!!
That is awesome :) what a great way to sum up this conversation! you should consider a job as an official Comment Moderator...:P
(4/10/2013 4:41:01 PM)
Yes, #11 said it well. I didn't read all the comments above, nor am I fully from the same background as most Lubavitchers and hence I may have a different opinion, but I sure do plan on sending my children to college. It is the exception that one can make enough money without a degree. What is this fear of going out into the world, and interacting and yes, even learning about other views. I hope our core is stronger than that to be able to withstand such encounters. Otherwise we are already on shacky ground.
(4/10/2013 4:48:28 PM)
Get with reality
The bottom line is that they are very unlikely to hire you without the college degree even if you have those other small degrees. They want a college degree which gives you all round knowledge on the business world in all areas, not just what you are workingg on. Even if you have the skills they are able to demand the degree because everyone else you are interviewing against has the degree which makes it hard for you to get the job. These are all good points you are saying. They are methods of getting the same knowledge without college but they will not land you a job so easily.
(4/10/2013 5:07:28 PM)
It seems that now people who actually work are joining the discussion.
(4/10/2013 5:09:33 PM)
These days there is a big highly recognized college called touro college which specifically has programs geared for the frum community. They have separate nights for men and women and frum teachers. I personally went there and there is no college atmosphere which I beleive the rebbe was worried about. It is full of bochurim after yeshiva or married with kids just trying to get a job. I think his is a great option for our community which was not always around 30years ago....
(4/10/2013 5:13:47 PM)
to #79
The issue with secular education is not about Frum vs Fri,but about Tumah and Tahara.What ever you study becomes part of you whether you like it or not.
My point about secular studies is not to say it is always forbidden,but that without a necessity it is.Now, being that the vast majority of what is taught in college is not job related or another necessary,it posses a major problem in Halacha.The main advantage of college is to show a employer you accomplished something in life.Now if Yeshivoth where respectable,than employers would treat it as a life accomplishment,provided that you might need some addition training or GED or whatever.
(4/10/2013 5:16:35 PM)
agree with #85
sums it up nicely. a good all around approach.
(4/10/2013 6:18:56 PM)
Thank you for forward thinking
There are many, not appropriate, courses that colleges/universities require all students to take. The Rebbe was very correct that these are not places for frum Yidden. Even with Chabad houses abound, do you know what the topics of conversation the students bring up? Oy.
As for online learning- a whole generation of shluchim's kids are being raised with an online education, so how can we criticize Elad's suggestions?
(4/10/2013 6:47:54 PM)
People assume too much...
The Rebbe made public his view on Lubavitchers going to college. Yes, there were exceptions when the Rebbe gave people a Brochah for their studies, however, this does not change the general rule.

What strikes me as odd is that people assume they know the reasoning the Rebbe had, as evidenced by comment 86 writing as if the primary reason for the Rebbe's advice was mixed education.

For MANY reasons Lubavitchers should not go to college.
If someone has a passion to pursue a specific career, this is not reason in itself to disregard the Rebbe's advice. Being a Chosid sometimes involves sacrifice, and for some it's choosing a different career.

There are enough business opportunities, and yidden who want to financially assist others in starting businesses, for every yid, especially frum yid, to own a successful business or large corporation. Yidden are only 2% of the population, frum yidden even less.

Besides for the myriad of reasons that suggest one should not go to college, here's another one: especially for a yid, college limits one's income potential (and increases debt).

Better to choose a business, partner with someone, spend four years growing and establishing it, and hiring someone to run it while you start another one.

Either way, no matter what you choose, or your opinions, one thing I have seen is, people nearly worshiping college degrees, the subjects studied in college etc etc.

This comes as no surprise since, all one need to do is glance but for a moment at the non-religious world to see people worshiping for example science, which is not only a lowly base study, but the aspects of science that they worship are unfounded hypotheses.
To explain a little further: The universe is multi-dimensional, it is consists of a spiritual and physical dimension, just as every person does, their body and their mind/emotions for example.

Science is like studying a person's flesh and thinking you understand what/who a person is without so much as a consideration for their intellect and emotions.

Such is the foolishness people pay money to be taught.

If you need to learn it in college, it is most likely falsehood with bits of truth. This goes for the medical field, science, sociology, electrical engineering etc etc etc.

Of the few subjects that are not full of identity and perspective corrupting falsehood, most can be studied as vocations, outside of college.

Nevertheless, the above does not begin to touch on the myriad of reasons why the wise choice is to NOT go to college, and definitely not without openly asking a mashpiyah with the intention to follow whatever advice you get.

Lastly, natural means do not apply to Yidden!
This is an unreal, yet definitive fact.
Every statistic about Yidden is evidence of this.
True, we are still rebuilding our post-war society and success, yet we are advancing to the heights of the international world like no others.

Hashem's brochoch and Hashem's honor bring about our success in any and all areas. We wouldn't even be here to discuss it were this not the case.

On another note: I noticed someone mentioned the Rebbe did not support making a Chabad "college" teaching "secular" subjects. I'm wondering, if the subjects weren't secular, but rather Torah, such as science with spirituality incorporated into it, mathematics and numerology according to Kaballah (which is more advanced than secular 'linear' mathematics/numerology vda"l), psychology based on Kabbalah and the foudations set in Shulchan Aruch, history with a focus on the greatest contribution thereto in nearly all aspects, due to Torah, harmonic electricity (discovered through Kabbalistic numerology), natural healing and medicine and health and wellness research and learning, foundations of morality and their self-evidence and how law derives from them, based on Gemarah and Chassidus etc etc etc

As mentioned above, much of college studies are rife with falsehood and corruption of the subjects and fields of study. Such a school(s) will dwarf ivy league universities in their choiceness, for who wants to pay to be taught lies and corruption?!
(4/10/2013 7:21:41 PM)
there are many colleges you can find (stern, touro) that are geared for frum students
(4/10/2013 7:35:27 PM)
Stop being so small minded
Many Chabadniks make excuses not to get an education because they are plain lazy. There is no reason for a man or woman who is struggling to support a family not to further their education in a college. This will hopefully open more doors for them and offer better opportunities.

All this is besides the fact that I have seen a clear letter from the rebbe that he says that the negative influences of university do not apply with regard to touro. He then adds that it should not be a replacement for yeshiva.

Someone who has spent many years in yeshiva and now wants to get a degree from somewhere like touro is going against the will of hashem by not doing so.
We all have a responsibility to make a vessel for hashem's blessing and if the apparent way to do so is by going to school (and this can be done in a kosher manner) then there are no excuses for not doing ones best to earn a living.
It states clearly in last weeks pirkei avos that Torah without toiling to earn a livehood will end up causing the Torah learning to come to an end and bring negativity into ones life.
The responsibility of a person is to only learn a shiur in the morning and one in the evening. The rest of the day should be spent using all ones outer energy to earn a living.
Doing so should involve creating the best vessels possible for the wonderful blessings of hashem.
Our purpose is to make a Dirah bitchactonim, to bring a positive change and influence on the word.
How can one do this when one does not make an effort to have the best vessels possible?
Except in unique situations, a person needs an education to better their skills and abilities so that they are more capable to go out in the world and make a positive change.
Hashem only wants a small portion of us to be rabbis ( see sicha on parshas vayechie ) he wants the majority of us to work hard and do our best to earn a living but when doing so we show the world how a jew acts in business and makes a kiddush hashem.
By limit a community to select jobs, u are limiting their ability to positive influence on society. There needs to be Jewish: doctors, lawyers, plumbers and even CEOs to be able to make a proper dira bethachtonim
When I finished yeshiva I was advised by my mashpia ( who happens to be a very chassidishe yid) to go to college and further myself. He saw in me the need to work and be the best I can be as a sucessful businessman and a Torah Jew. To earn lots of money while being honest and respectful and having an influence on so many layers of society that rabbis and shluchim cannot reach.
Rabbi lead by preaching, the can only tell people how to act in the world but they themselves are not involved in the world.
I am involved in the world and a teach by being a living example of how a Torah Jew should live their life.
Stop preaching ignorance and instead find ways to help men and woman receive and education in a Torah way as is already being done in many other religious communities.

(4/10/2013 8:14:02 PM)
The Rebbe + College + Popack
I recently heard a story in the name of Reb Shmuel Isaac Poapck. He said that his son Yossi wanted to go to college so he could earn a living (this is before R. Shmuel Isaac was making $). Reb Shmuel Isaac told him that the Rebbe says not to go to college. His son said that if the Rebbe knew my circumstance, he'd agree that I should go to college (paraphrased of course). Finally Reb Shmuel Isaac told him "if you're so sure, ask the Rebbe yourself".

Yossi went into Yechidus by himself and came out looking confused. His father asked him if the Rebbe agreed that he should go to college? He said "no". "So what did the Rebbe say about your need to make a Parnassah?" asked his father. Yossi responded "The Rebbe guaranteed me a Parnassah if I don't go to college". So Shmuel Isaac immediately became his son's partner. The rest is history.

If there's a Poapck (or anyone else) out there that can confirm or refute this story, please weigh in.

(4/10/2013 8:21:44 PM)
That is not what science is.
(4/10/2013 8:51:08 PM)
On 110s story
Great story. The point is made. Just want to add, and maybe it's not my place, but making examples out of those who fall into the category of being a yoitzai min haklal as far as wealth is concerned isn't necessarily doing those of us looking for guidance a favor. It's easy to speak for others, but speaking for oneself is the difference maker here. Halevai that there could be more Lubavitchers in financial positions like Yossi Popack, but there aren't, and saying a maaseh he had with the Rebbe as proof that unequivocally college won't give you parnassa is just being vain.
(4/10/2013 9:25:42 PM)
Frum Society
Frum Society cannot thrive on one-in-a-million strike-it-rich entrepreneurs, or even one-in-a-thousand eke-out-a-living entrepreneurs. Communities thrive with professionals (doctors, lawyers, accountants).

Frum society should get married then go to College unless they have family business connections or want to stay within kodesh work. Anything else is called relying on miracles. We don't do it with anything else so why do it with your career.
(4/10/2013 9:38:38 PM)
Food stamps
For all of those who are saying negative thoughts such as "lazy crown heighters on food stamps", Obviously these commenter have not been in that situation so they are judging. I am personally on EBT or snap (they change names often). I am not proud of it nor am I lazy about not furthering my career. I am in college and I hope to one day be able to afford food without the use of food stamps, but these comments really make me angry because... Yes right now I AM relying on food stamps because I need to eat to survive!
(4/10/2013 9:46:45 PM)
to 107, wow!!!! excellent
and thanks 85 lol, wish i read that comment a bit earlier
(4/10/2013 9:50:03 PM)
Irrelevant Article
This article is way too late. This idea has been out for ages. But with a twist, there are so many more jobs other than doctor or lawyer that it is mandatory to have a degree. The most basic and common in our community being a TEACHING degree. (Others include all health and mental healtg related professions: OT, PT, SLP, and Nutritionist, counseling, and on the other end of the spectrum Accounting: a huge and ever growing field.
Problem with online school: my brother went to a school like that and now can't get a job because it is not good enough.
Another problem with Online school: It is not motivating enough for MANY people. Most people actually.
And of course, the jobs listed are NOT for everyone at ALL. In fact it is quite a slim population that fit into the categories listed.

Basically: I do not agree with the article as it is writing off college, which is obviously wrong and,
This article is behind its times...people have been saying that there are many fields to pursue that do not require a degree for YEARS
(4/10/2013 10:13:40 PM)
Chabad & Education
Many have confused what the Rebbe stated about education. I think the majority use "excuse" by misconstruing the Rebbe's recommendations to not get jobs/careers to support their families.
I believe the Rebbe wants all of us to develop our "potential" to the best that we can. Then we help our family and contribute to the community. I Am For diplomas from high school and college degree. No one should ever be held back from learning secular or academic learning. Man or women.

(4/10/2013 10:19:47 PM)
When it comes to fundraising you sure know who to ask!The educated or those with the money. How nice.The double standard.You sure like going to a frum doctor or lawyer but Gd forbid a chossid should pursue a career or interest in learning.Seems a little hypocritical to me. And wow the Rebbe himself was educated and an intellectual. I understand what colleges were like back then but that is no longer the case and who said the trade schools are holier?
(4/10/2013 10:25:20 PM)
Education Matters
I wonder what percentage of people in the Conservative and Reform communities rely on food stamps, Medicaid, Earned Income Tax credits, WIC, Head Start, free phones etc? I doubt the number is very high. Now why do you think the numbers are so high in the frummest communities... and don't give me this garbage about large families. Could it maybe just have something to do with the massive educational gap? Why is it that when I walk into a hospital it is always secular and modern orthodox Jewish doctors that I encounter? Based on my anecdotal observation, the secular and modern orthodox tend to live mostly in upper class neighborhoods, while the same cannot be said of Litvish and Chassidish communities. The same exact thing occurs in Israel. The educated chiloni and modern orthodox pay the lions share of the taxes while the Charedi are the biggest welfare recipients. Education matters. Stop obsessing over 5% of the communities successful businessmen while ignoring the other 95% who are barely making it.
(4/10/2013 11:18:53 PM)
Yunger man
In order to take online classes Internet is needed, and which lubavitcher family has Internet these days?? Are you saying that people should get Internet?? Allot worse things are learned and seen on the Internet then in collage.
(4/10/2013 11:33:30 PM)
To 112
I think the message of the story (if it's accurate) is that when the Rebbe said no college he meant everyone. Even those that think they're the exception or those that believe that it's the only way to make a living...

The amount of money Popack ended up making, is not really the point. Popack's income bracket (and it should continue to grow iy"h) is a yotzei min haklal even for college graduates...
(4/11/2013 3:12:39 AM)
to number 67
i am a frum 23 year old lubavitcher bochur that also wanted to go into computer programing and i really appreciated this article as well.
(4/11/2013 3:20:03 AM)
People here are being loopy
I honestly have to say that some people here sound completely insane. Of course there will be successful people who never went to college. That's life. What college does is give you a step up ahead of people who never went to college. If you interviewed for a position (that typically would not need a college degree to obtain) and the choice was between you and a college graduate, I would venture to say that the employer would 9 times out of 10 choose the graduate.

The other aspect of this argument is that going to college isn't all about getting jobs. College is a wonderful environment to teach discipline, critical thinking, and interpersonal skills. It teaches young people to live on their own and develop values and character traits that you don't get being sheltered. This certainly doesn't mean that you aren't fum anymore or you suddenly turn into a kofir. The values and discipline I learned in college are invaluable. I would neither be as successful as I am today nor as good a person as I am had it not been for the people in college who guided me.
(4/11/2013 10:24:17 AM)
I love to hear all these holy commenters against college ,while in internet which is 100 times mor dangerous than college
(4/11/2013 11:30:14 AM)
I am surprised to see the lack of independence that young Lubavitch people have in making this decision. If you are academically-motivated and interested in pursuing a higher education, then go for it!
Do not look for approval from the CH community. Most people there do not even understand what a secular college is.
I am studying in graduate school, and am available for (free) professional guidance in getting started for a career in healthcare, specifically Medicine or Dentistry. You can email me at meddr9@gmail.com with any questions you have, and I will reply with a few pointers.
(4/11/2013 11:59:48 AM)
to 117
you are right- he did enc those who asked him to pursue their careers so "he meant everyone" is NOT correct.The Rebbe was into everything and always turned it into a "Jewish" issue so for career minded people they can use it for the good of humanity and also for tzedaka. do NOT use the Rebbe to further enable your own lack of skills or motivation.The Rebbe worked tirelessly and knew so many different subjects.
(4/11/2013 12:14:28 PM)
Type of Economies
I am weighing in a second time for another point.
There are two main types of work; producing something of value and service.
The western worlds' economies are mostly service economies. And that is a little bit of a problem. As manufacturing jobs have moved to different countries, western countries are producing less value.
There are a lot of different types of service economy. The health care system is an example of providing a service, legal, accounting and others as well.
Small businesses are the successes of any economy past, present or future.
That would include not just entrepreneurs but people inventing and staying ahead of the times. And that isn't really taught in University.
So people want a good parnasah, but they are going to college and entering fields that are behind the times.
(4/11/2013 12:36:17 PM)
So what do you say about smartphones?
(4/11/2013 3:16:08 PM)
So just in case you do want to go anyway (gasp)
May I suggest a few pointers?
Do not assume you are different. You will run into temptation. Be very careful of being shomer(et) negiah and yichud.
If you can, live at home. And unlike many here, I'm not assuming you live in NY.
If you can, get credit for your previous studies. (Chasidus is philosophy.)
Do go to a school where there is a community of frum Jews.
Don't live in a dorm. Live off campus, in or near the frum area.
Get involved with the frum community, on or off campus.
Remember your goal is to study, but the other is that you can make yourself a kiddush HaShem or an embarrassment. You may be the first Jew, (let alone the first one who actually knows anything about Judaism) some of your classmates ever meet.

Remember that the Rebbe can be your example. He made it through school and worked in the outside world while remaining true to Torah. The Sorbonne is the top University in France, and not exactly a bastion of conservatism. The Rebbe was a ship designer, in other words a Naval Architect. Naval Architects are engineers.
(4/11/2013 4:05:30 PM)
62 and 127

To #62 Some of the fields you list will not take a student who does not have a 4 year degree even before starting the program to study. Most of the rest require 2 or 4 year degrees in order to get a license to practice in that field. Two year college/Associates degrees are college degrees. I think you are looking at people and assuming they are much less educated than they are.

To #127 Those entrepreneurs and inventors you speak of? They usually have degrees in business or engineering…or both. Even the ones that didn’t finish have lots of schooling behind them, and usually are only missing a few credits to finish the degree.
(4/11/2013 4:06:58 PM)
Number 27 is right
Its sooooo crazey, I wonna be a doctor but I can't coz my mum says I shud do graphic design! I just wanna be passioenate about my job!
(4/11/2013 8:39:37 PM)
Entrepenuar school
The problem of college not preparing people for the real world ,is well documented. Recently many new entrepreneur schools have opened up whose main intention is to bypass college and go straight into the business world,in fact many colleges themselves are also opening up such schools.Just to name one"Enstitute",which is an apprenticeship program based in NY that completely bypasses college,and they have many companies who have agreed to higher their students.Not that I recommend the program,because don't know much about them,but it serves as proof that the tides are turning on college.There is no reason we Lubavitcher's should rush back into a outdated system,on the contrary we should be at the forefront of a new developing world and create such programs ourselves.
Thank you #62,92,107. for showing the reality of the matter and not just hypothetical theory.
(4/12/2013 12:51:44 AM)
It is determined who is going to be poor or rich whatever you do
Why to go to college if every RH is determined the money that u r going to get for the all year?
Birchas Hashem hi teashir
Buy mega million Learn Torah. Daven Mitzvos with joy
Your wife and your kids are your real wealth
(4/12/2013 1:13:20 AM)
#3 #47 #88 #29 1/2
(4/12/2013 1:20:54 AM)
To 131
Grab life by the horns and go after your dreams. Although I'm not becoming a doctor is the best option for you or your future family. If I were in your shoes, I would go for a PA (physicians assistant), PT (physical therapist) or a OT (occupational therapist), or nursing. The reason being, that medical school is extremely demanding and it requires that an individual sacrifice a tremendous amount. I'm talking from experience.

Good luck!
(4/12/2013 1:43:09 AM)
Keep on telling yourself...
You can keep trying to convince yourself that college is unimportant while you struggle to pay bills, can't afford tuition, and scam every government program available. The facts are, as per the Wall Street Journal, people with a bachelors have half the unemployment rate, and make significantly more. No one intelligent says that college is necessary and without it you won't be able to support your family, they merely point out that statistically speaking you're significantly more likely to fail without a college degree.
In summary, it's quite simple. By not allowing your children to go to college (and furthermore, by sending your kids to lousy elementary and high schools without a secular education), your setting up your children to have the same terrible life your currently living. Don't doom your kids to a life of government dependencies and lack of financial security. You owe it to them that they should at least have a chance.
(4/12/2013 2:17:42 PM)
First of all,since when is the wall street journal our Gide in life and statistics our foundation.Seond of all,if you would have a secular education,you would know that statistics are very misleading for several reasons.Of them:
One,they don't explain what is the cause and what is the effect.Is it that people who are smart and disciplined go to college,or that college makes you smart and discipline.
Two,statistics don't take into account all the variables,meaning there may be other factors involved.Most business in America have a disposition to college degrees,whether or not a degree is necessary.
Three, the statistics where done on the general society,they where not done on Frum Jews.There are a lot of barriers for for Frum Jews besides college.Many companies don't like hiring people with beards, who take off on a lot of holidays in middle of the year.True,it's not as bad as it used to be,but it is still a problem.
Besides all this,please define what you mean "fail","have..terrible life",and "have a chance"It sounds like you believe Money is the root of happiness and success.I for one can tell you that there are many people with college degrees and money who live horrible lives,and people without it who live good lives.As frum Jews, the Torah is suppose to be our guide in life and root of our happiness.Is sacrificing that for a couple extra dollars worth it?
(4/12/2013 3:47:38 PM)
Very few college degrees can pay for a Frum family
(4/12/2013 4:44:00 PM)
To 137
Alright. Firstly your spelling and grammar leave much to be desired, is English your first language? you could definitely have benefited from a secular education.
Now, in order.
Nothing implies the WSJ is a guide to life, just a reliable source of information.
Your pointing out that businesses prefer college degrees only supports the concept that one should attempt to obtain one.
Beards? get with the times. Companies don't care about beards. Taking lots of time off on the other hand does bother employers, however if you're a good worker and you make up for lost time they get over it.
Fail doesn't imply unhappy. Terrible doesn't refer to how you see it, perhaps your happy accepting handouts. That is terrible though. People shouldn't be happy till they can support themselves. No one said money is the root of happiness, it is however a necessity of life.
(4/12/2013 5:22:54 PM)
to 140
Proper punctuation would be proper - and I went through Oholei Torah. Just saying.
(4/12/2013 5:30:18 PM)
Being a taxpayer I don't like paying for that lifestyle.
(4/12/2013 5:49:40 PM)
To# 140
OK,so you will tell us what we should want from life and whether we should be happy,and then we will have to go college to meet your expectations,right?
If college makes people independent ,how come most people send their kids to public schools and receive medicare when their older?if you calculate all the money religious people have to spend on educating their kids, it would well balance out all the so called handouts that they get.Get with the times,the government is part of everyone's life, whether you like it or not.
Now as for you question,yes English is my first language, and I speak and write it better than a lot of people who have gone to college.And,please next time don't use an ad hominem.
(4/12/2013 6:37:03 PM)
In addition,we don't have to bend over backwards to meet some employers demands.We can create businesses that treat people based on what they do,not on what they did some years prier in some college.
(4/12/2013 6:41:43 PM)
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