Jun 19, 2012
I Am "The Tznius Lady"
Illustration photo: CH Pictures Blog/Inset: Mrs. Ella Lerman

Mrs. Ella Lerman has been teaching in Bais Rivka for over 25 years, but recently she gained a new title - "the tznius lady" - and she uses it with pride.

By Ella Lerman
N'Shei Chabad Newsletter


Based on a talk given to Shluchos

I was born in Crown Heights and I have lived here all my life. My husband and I were directed by the Rebbe to stay in Crown Heights after we were married. I have been teaching in Bais Rivkah for over 25 years and now I have a new title. I am the tznius lady. It has taken me a while to say that out loud. Let me try that again with a little more pride. I am the tznius lady. It is hard sometimes, especially when I see people crossing the street when they see me.

I am nervous to be speaking to you tonight. Not only because I am talking to such a large crowd, kein ayin hara, of the Rebbe’s Shluchos, but I am also worried whether I will do justice to this topic. Will I be able to get you to feel the passion that I feel? When I go to speak to principals at our schools, my husband asks me why I am so nervous. I tell him how much is riding on getting people to see how vital tznius is. Are we up to the challenge?

This may surprise you, but I asked for the job of tznius lady. I told Bais Rivkah that someone needed to stand in front of their doors and tell mothers that they couldn’t enter if they were not dressed according to Jewish law, and I offered to do the job. My family was not excited about this.

Many women would get angry at me. They’d yell at me and give me dirty looks (one woman even spat at me). When I was done, I’d sit in my car, shaking and sometimes crying. One woman yelled at me, “How dare you tell me what to wear?”

I answered her calmly, “I dare because I have been employed by Bais Rivkah, so this is my job. Also,” I said, looking her straight in the eye, “if your parent was being disgraced in the streets, would you sit at home and do nothing, or would you be out in the streets to bring back honor to your mother or father? Well, it is my Rebbe, my Rebbe’s community, my Eibershter and my Torah that is being disgraced. I can’t just sit at home!”

I received many calls regarding my new job. Most people were very supportive and even excited that we were taking a stand. Some mothers said, “Can’t you instead motivate the mothers to dress in a tzniusdik manner with speeches and workshops?”

I explained to them that though all that is very important, the time had come for what I call “Mehn tor nisht, mehn ken nisht, mehn muz nisht.” We should not, we cannot, we must not. It is unacceptable to dress in a non-tzniusdik manner. It is against halachah and it will not be tolerated. When you are boarding a plane, the security personnel don’t say to you, “Let me first tell you about how wonderful it is to be safe from terrorism. Then, if you feel inspired to, you can leave behind your knives and guns.”

No, these are the rules if you want to board the plane. Of course, learning about the beauty of tznius is important and we want to approach everyone with love. But the time has come to say, “These are the rules; these are the halachos.”

It takes guts and a lot of courage to say something, but when it hurts enough you scream. My job here is to empower you to “say something.” We cannot be silent. Say something to your daughter, your neighbor, your student, yourself. Say it with love and let them see how much you are bothered by what we are doing to Lubavitch.

I spoke to a woman who teaches in one of our schools. I asked her not to wear dark- colored nail polish. She was not happy that I had called her. She said to me, “If you would just stick to the black-and-white areas we wouldn’t have such problems with tznius. It is because you pick on things that are in the grey areas, that’s why we are losing the girls.” I was almost crying.

I said to her, “Are you telling me that from a teacher in one of the Rebbe’s mosdos I can only ask for the basic halachos of tznius? Are you telling me that the girls in school don’t deserve role models? Do they have to see their mechanchos with very long sheitlach and dark nail polish?” I ask the same of the Shluchos that I ask of the Bais Rivkah teachers, the parents of our students, and Crown Heights residents. You are our teachers, our role models. You are who we aspire to be.

Last year, on the final day of school, a Friday, I was proctoring the 12th graders who were taking their last test. I saw one of my students with the buttons of her shirt open quite low. I knew I had to say something. She is a good student, the daughter of Shluchim, a really nice girl. I started to give myself excuses. “I don’t want to embarrass her. I will speak to her when she comes up to the desk to hand in her test paper.”

Well, when she put her test in the envelope I didn’t say a word. After all, there were other girls at the desk and I didn’t want to make her feel uncomfortable.

That Friday night, I dreamt that I saw this student walking in the street with pants on. On Shabbos day, after a Pirkei Avos shiur, I told my friends what had happened and what I learned from it all. I didn’t speak to the girl, not only because I didn’t want to embarrass her, but because I didn’t want to appear not cool. I knew that the girl liked me and I didn’t want her to think of me as an annoying, nagging teacher.

When we don’t speak up it is because we want to appear hip and cool, G-d forbid.

From then on I decided to speak up. I encourage you to do the same.

I have asked women who struggle with keeping the halachos of tznius to come to my house dressed in a tzniusdik manner. I have refused to patronize stores in Crown Heights where the saleswomen are dressed in a not-tzniusdik manner... I have decided that it is cool to stick up for your principles!

Then I asked the Shluchos committee if I could speak to the Shluchos. I met a Shluchah who was visiting the school. She told me that she was having a hard time with the girls who were working for her. They were wonderful teachers but the way they dressed was not becoming for a bas Chabad and parents in her community had noticed. When I asked her what she was doing about it, she said she was afraid to say a thing to the girls. I was shocked. She is the Shluchah, she is their employer, she is an outspoken, tzniusdik woman and she can’t tell her employees that they need to dress appropriately?!?

I often wonder, how did the environmentalists make it so cool to go green? Recycling isn’t glamorous and using cloth diapers can’t be fun. Then I realized, they got celebrities on board and made it popular. The Shluchos are our celebrities. You are creative, devoted and so talented. If you decide to dedicate yourselves to bringing back the pride and dignity to our women and girls, and to restoring the glorious, shining name of Chabad, it will happen.

This is a call to action. It is time to take a stand. When people tell me the terrible things they are seeing in our communities, I tell them, “Don’t tell me the horror stories. Tell me what you are doing about it!” We need to be bold and brave. It requires strength and mesirus nefesh. This is not the battle hymn of the tiger mom, this is the battle cry of the Yiddishe Mamme. Mi laShem eilai. I am asking the over 1500 women in this room to stand up. If each one of us makes a decision to dress according to the law and to commit to living a tzniusdik lifestyle, the world will look very different tomorrow.

So, this is our challenge. When you finish reading this article, what will you do about the terrible chilul Hashem which we are seeing in our neighborhoods? Are you going to say, “Enough, from now on I will make sure that my skirt is covering my knees when I sit, walk and climb the stairs”? Will you be careful with necklines that fall too low and clothes that are too tight? Do we really want to cheapen our beautiful, Torah way of life for a few inches?

It is time for us to ask our boys’ and girls’ schools to set high and true standards for their students, teachers and parents. Many people do not have a Rav or a mashpia to guide them, but everyone sends their kids to school and they respect the school’s rules. We must demand from anyone who has authority: principals, camp directors, heads of organizations, etc., not to quietly accept and tolerate behavior that goes against halachah.

Many people will be reading this article. Will you be the one who will sigh and say, “This is terrible,” and then do nothing? Or will you decide that you can make a difference and take action right away? Our children need us to protect and guard our Yiddishe, chassidishe lifestyle, for them and their children. May we be matzliach and may we have, in abundance, true nachas from our children and grandchildren.

-- Mrs. Ella Lerman is a long-time teacher in Associated Beth Rivkah Schools in Crown Heights and a respected educator in the neighborhood. Her father was the talmid chacham and chossid R' Hirsh Chitrik OBM.

Most Read Most Comments

Bookmark and Share
Opinions and Comments
1
I Have a Question:
Are you allowed to apply make up on shabbos and/or Yom tov
I see plenty of women wearing makeup on Shabbos and/or on three day yomtov, Is there any sort of Heter that I dont know about?
Please I really would want to know bec If I could where makeup I would feel so much better about my self!
Thank you
(6/19/2012 8:07:37 PM)
2
Thank you!
And may Hashem give you health and strength to continue your work and hopefully more and more women will see the importance of dressing tzniusd and your work will be less ;-)
(6/19/2012 8:12:03 PM)
3
Kol Hakovod
It is about time that some one should stand up for the rights of the Toroh and Yiddishkait, america iz nisht andersh, I really commend Mrs. lerman for her stand Chazak Chazak VeNischazek, keep it up and Hatzlocho raboh
(6/19/2012 8:14:19 PM)
4
Mea Shearim not Lubavitch
Are you kidding me? We should not be dragging the Rebbe's name into these coercive modesty policing tactics. She belongs in Mea Sharim. The Rebbe would never endorse coercive tactics like this. The only way to inform and inspire is through education and voluntary action. This reminds me of a story where a girl unwittingly wore pants to visit the Rebbe and only when she arrives did she realize the decorum was wearing a skirt. The Rebbe purposefully approached the girl wearing pants and gave her a dollar in order to make her feel welcome. That approach is the exact apposite of this lady.
(6/19/2012 8:21:04 PM)
5
Thank you!
Thank for taking a stand even though it is not easy. When we get used to seeing what is not right we start to think there is nothing wrong with it. I really appreciate what you are doing and it will inspire me to do more. May we all be blessed with all the brochos. Bezras HaShem we should see tznius as a zchus.
(6/19/2012 8:22:36 PM)
6
Mrs Lerman
Your an amazing lady!!!!!! I admire u please keep doing what your doing we need more people like you !
(6/19/2012 8:23:55 PM)
7
ab ou the tsniout women
i would like to say chkoyah',it's very true the way how she speak ,it's true it's enought ,im from france,i wasn't in ch for many years ,but when i came back andi saw how the tsniut came so down,i say to myself,it's a chaime for the rebbe and hachem,im completely agree with her ,we have to do something ,like it's written on pirkei avos ,when there is no men tichtadel lihiot ich,it's mean we have to do something, and appearing cool,and fun that's not a way how to save this neighborhood,this is the quarter of the rebbe,we schould do evrything that we can ,because yes, we can change the worlke in a kedoucha way , and of course darchei noam and darchei chalom as the rebbe said,i hope ,it's gone make ,a good moove,on the right way,kol tuv evrybody,
(6/19/2012 8:28:32 PM)
8
Go Mrs. Lerman!
Kol Hakovod!! Yasher Koach for saying what needs to be said!
(6/19/2012 8:30:52 PM)
9
KOL HAKAVOD
THANK G-D MRS. LERMAN IS TZNIUS !!!
(6/19/2012 8:33:31 PM)
10
wow
this is an amazign and inspiring article and even tho i am not a shlucha i will definitly make a differance
(6/19/2012 8:35:49 PM)
11
to number 1
no there is no such heter. that is the most ridiculous thing ive heard.
its one of the 39 melchos. called tzavoah. u cannot put on makeup on shabbos. that is coloring ur face and against halacha
(6/19/2012 8:43:15 PM)
12
I know
There are lots of ppl who were makup
Its not allowed!
(6/19/2012 8:54:25 PM)
13
But....
I think that this is all a good idea, however, embarrassing someone does not make it okay b/c it's in terms of Tznius. So being that this must be done, let it be done in a fashion where one won't get embarrassed and the Rebbe would be happy to see, Thank you - Kol Hakavod!
(6/19/2012 8:54:32 PM)
14
Get a Life
The common denominator that you and radical Islam have in common is that you both think you are fighting a holy war, and you have a right in dictating how people should live. Don't forget they also have the same type of rules and they use the same logic.
(6/19/2012 8:57:43 PM)
15
Rebbe' brocha
Did you open Igros Kodesh and get a brocha from the Rebbe to do this job?
(6/19/2012 8:57:48 PM)
16
Wow
It any thing but Lubavich way. I can see number of student to be going down for next school year, and kids who do not have jewish education will be out.
(6/19/2012 8:59:46 PM)
17
Go Ella!
(6/19/2012 9:03:17 PM)
18
Please Provide Sources
What are the sources for Hilchos Tzinius in Halacha?
I would like to study them.
Anybody reading this who knows please write the Siman and Seif in a comment.
Thank you.
(6/19/2012 9:05:05 PM)
19
It high time.
If the women in Crown Heights would know what the people in other communities think of the tznius level here, they would bury themselves from shame. Perfectly frum women dont bother to cover their neck bone. We are talking about basic Halacha. My husband actually was disgusted by the tight clothes worn here and said " do they think it's a turn on when others can practically see their arteries.

For every head that a Jewish women causes to turn, she pays a severe price after 120 as well as now. Every time a man gazes into her eyes, the zohar says that a piece of her Neshama goes to him.

Get educated. Talk to Rabbi Wallerstien. He is a great teacher and would do wonders for this community.
(6/19/2012 9:07:08 PM)
20
agree with #4
Not very Lubavitch at all.
(6/19/2012 9:07:43 PM)
21
Daily Dose of Wisdom More on How to Criticize
If this person you feel an urge to criticize is not yet your close friend, you’ll need to spend some time with him. Find out everything that’s good about him, and go out of your way to help him out. Eventually, a real friendship will develop

Also, you’ll need to ensure that this person has the same knowledge, understanding and perspective of right and wrong as you do before you can attack his decisions. If he doesn’t, you’ll need to spend some time learning and discussing together until you see each other’s point of view.

Once the two of you are in the same space in Torah and observance of mitzvot, and he’s your good friend to boot, then it’s okay to criticize—if necessary. And if you can remember what there was to criticize.


From the wisdom of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, of righteous memory; words and condensation by Rabbi Tzvi Freeman. To order Rabbi Freeman’s book, Bringing Heaven Down to Earth, click here.
(6/19/2012 9:08:24 PM)
22
so sad
Its so sad that ppl would tell you off for trying to make this world a better place. Yosher koach for your time effort and dedi ation is all very much appreciated.
(6/19/2012 9:11:15 PM)
23
yes and no
time that those who dress inappropriately in the Rebbe's Shchuna feel a sense of embarrassment. stop worrying about embarrassing them they are already an embarrassment to the aibishter and to all bnos yisroel. furthermore, do you not stop a kid eating treif, speaking loshon hora, cursing etc. because you may embarrass them? you kidding me. of course it's embarrassing. the sotah procedure was very embarrassing but done by the kohanim who were sensitive and loved every Jew. we need more Mrs. Lerman's on the Street. (of course i'm not referring to the few uneducated ppl visiting or living in CH but having been educated by those who do dress appropriately) But at the same time for all those reading these posts and get the picture that lubavitch and crown heights have had a yerida in tznius i think you're simply mistaken. so many tzniusdikly dressed and behaved women in Crown Heights and in lubavitch throughout the world. they just don't spend there time parading the streets of CH. We have what to be proud of. To all of you who dress tzniusdikly. kol hakovod. you know you will be zoche to all the brochos. Mrs. Lerman the Shluchos who heard you speak were inspired. keep up the good work. Hashem will bless you.
(6/19/2012 9:11:23 PM)
24
kol hakavod!!!
i wish it will be more pepole like you in c.h.
i am sure that all the negative commoents will be from the untznius pepole..because who has a chutzpa to say somthing negative about such a true article?
its became a "chilul hashem" latest and i wish you should sucseed in your job.
(6/19/2012 9:13:29 PM)
25
How to Rebuke the Chabad way
The Alter Rebbe is very clear about how one must rebuke a fellow Jew if they are not behaving in accordance to Halacha.
In Perek 32 in Tanya the Alter Rebbe writes:
(Translation from 'Lessons in Tanya' by Rabbi Y. Wineberg)

"Of this situation Hillel said, 12 “Be one of the disciples of Aharon, loving peace and pursuing peace, loving creatures and drawing them near to the Torah.”
"This usage of the term “creatures” in reference to human beings means that even those who are far from G‑d’s Torah and His service, for which reason they are classified simply as “creatures“ — indicating that the fact that they are G‑d’s creations is their sole virtue — even those one must attract with strong cords of love.
"Perhaps thereby one will be able, after all, to draw them close to the Torah and the service of G‑d."

Any other form of rebuke is not the Chabad way.
(6/19/2012 9:13:42 PM)
26
Thank you Mrs. Lerman
I wish I had the guts to do what you do.
So many times I am on Kingston and am simply appalled at the mini skirts and low necks. And I'm from the more fashionable people out there, but the standards have gone way to low.
Please, Please to all reading this. When you find yourself putting on that skirt that is a few inches above your knees - please rethink it. Dont wear it.
What will be with our daughters in a few years? When they see adults around them dressing this way, what standards will they have in a few years when they can make their own choices???
(6/19/2012 9:17:34 PM)
27
thank's
a lot , keep up doing good for the shchuna , we need it very much , i start to see there is reform people living in ch
(6/19/2012 9:17:54 PM)
28
inspired!!
mrs lerman i really look up to you and admire you
(6/19/2012 9:18:00 PM)
29
Kol hakavod
Very true!
(6/19/2012 9:34:11 PM)
30
A Shliach
It's Trying to chase the dark with a stick 
It's not going to change anything or improve better education 
If they would get better education and know more about our values they would deffently pass it on to the next generation 

Teacher and menahim should believe in chinuch and do it just for a job to pay theire bill
If that's the case pasut u r killing neahamos every day of you paycheck and who know how many effort the rebbe would have to put to get this kids back on track from theire darkness
(6/19/2012 9:35:00 PM)
31
Enjoy yourself.
It's cute that you think anyone cares what you think welcome to 2012.
(6/19/2012 9:38:09 PM)
32
power vs purpose
Absolute power ... If your self appointed position of sole police, judge & jury is so Nobel and vital, then bring others in with your efforts to ensure proper checks andbalances. This would help your efforts ultimately while removing legitimate criticism that you are power hungry while hiding behind "theRebbe'skavod"
(6/19/2012 9:43:27 PM)
33
reply to 31
The Torah is as relevant today as it ever was. Why be ashamed to look like a modest Jew. Who decided it's cool to dress like cheap shmutz
(6/19/2012 9:50:57 PM)
34
heh.
"I was shaking and crying"
"I was crying"

Bet you don't give a hoot about what the women and girls you police every day do once they're out of your eyesight. I bet it doesn't matter one single iota if they break down crying at home, have panic or nervous attacks or whatever.

Does that matter to "lady Tznius" eh?
(6/19/2012 9:55:39 PM)
35
Thank you #25
(6/19/2012 10:00:39 PM)
36
What Kind of Name is That?
Perhaps if you were known as the 'Kindness Lady' and you championed Tznius you would be more successful...
(6/19/2012 10:01:07 PM)
37
To #4
You speak without a clue
This is Lubavitch the only thing here is shulchan arch don't try to pull the shlichus kiruv card. If you want to be treated like mekurev then live near a Chabad house in crown heights we follow shulchan aruch! The rebbe expects nothing less so don't pull the kiruv card. Enough!
(6/19/2012 10:01:19 PM)
38
Thank you #25
Mrs Lerman please make sure that your excellent words
are filled with love and patience so it will have the effect
you want and we all need.
(6/19/2012 10:04:17 PM)
39
Why do you do it?
"...I asked for the job of tznius lady. I told Bais Rivkah that someone needed to stand in front of their doors and tell mothers that they couldn’t enter if they were not dressed according to Jewish law, and I offered to do the job. My family was not excited about this.

"Many women would get angry at me. They’d yell at me and give me dirty looks (one woman even spat at me). When I was done, I’d sit in my car, shaking and sometimes crying. One woman yelled at me, “How dare you tell me what to wear?”

"I answered her calmly, “I dare because I have been employed by Bais Rivkah, so this is my job."

Why do you say you were employed if you were the one who created the job in the first place, is that honest?

Maybe that's why people don't accept what you say.
(6/19/2012 10:04:42 PM)
40
Dear # 4
We are not speaking here about someone who unknowingly wears pants or other immodest garments. Of course the Rebbe showed us how to be sensitive and patient with those who do not yet know the Halachos of the Torah. For those of us who are lucky enough to be brought up in Chssidishe Yiddishe homes, and know what is proper and Halachically correct, there are no excuses. We must take greater care in our own tznius, and try to find a way to reach the girls and women who find tznius challenging, and impart to them the value and beauty of our Torah's mitzvos, which were given to us to guard and educate generations worthy of greeting Moshiach Tzidkeinu. If we were to be zoche to go to the Rebbe for 'dollars' how would we be dressed? Hashem, and the Rebbe are with us constantly, so let us make them proud of us as we await the Geulah Shlaima.
(6/19/2012 10:04:58 PM)
41
this is exactly why the girls dress the way they do.
I really don't want to hurt anyone's feelings but this is the reason why these girls will go out of their way and dress worse, than what you have seen them with. You don't know who they are, or where they are coming from. maybe today shes covering something she didn't cover yesterday but all you will see is what she is not doing good today. This s is why crown heights is the way it is. The girls these days are coming from such a different place than these teachers are. I don't know if you remember but we didn't grow up with the Rebbe. So maybe try a different method obviously this isn't working. and we had these tznius laidys all these years obviously it did not work. You think forcing kids into do something is the right method? You see the outcome once they step out of those doors a few years later if you did a good job. Maybe try a little inspiration it goes a long way.
(6/19/2012 10:05:06 PM)
42
kol hakavod!!!
(6/19/2012 10:07:33 PM)
43
Oholie Torah bocher
I still believe that bochrim having a qwerty keyboard phone is much worse of an issue, and needs to be addressed first!
(6/19/2012 10:11:00 PM)
44
No more excuses
Stop hiding behind "this is not the rebbes way" the rebbe educated us that everything must be in accordance with Shulchan aruch. End of story.what this lady is doing is saving neshomos years ago when you put on teffilin you were made fun and had rocks thrown at you, so today when you demand tznius your spat at etc. but in the end you will succeed and the detractors will fade like the rock throwers. Keep saving the neshomos it's the chabad way!
(6/19/2012 10:11:08 PM)
45
To number one I hope you read this.
I hope you know if you put on makeup you are literally being mechalel shabbos! Those women- I know what you mean- are going DIRECTLY against Hashem!

Please please PLEASE do not put on makeup- even if it makes you feel better.

Thank you!

p.s- there is such a thing as long-lasting makeup- if you put it on friday night it should last till shabbos ends.

HATZLOCHO!!+
(6/19/2012 10:21:43 PM)
46
Eventually One is doing what must be done!
This should the school law, you should not be able to send your kids to school if your dressed not according the Jewish law.

Mothers who don't dress tznius, should need to pay FULL PRICE for tuition. No discount should be allowed for those who destroy our jewish Chabad values.

Time has come to take serious action. A shame on Chabad that we've reached so low... The rebbe would have had so much agmus nefesh....
(6/19/2012 10:24:20 PM)
47
Tzinius and its effects
I highly respect any woman who dresses tznius, and fashionably. You are true role models. I'm sure everyone can think of a girl / lady who looks great and in style and at the same time is following the laws of tzniyus. That is Cool. Thats something to respect. For the lubavich girls and woman who do not follow the laws of tzniyus..please realize how Uncool you look and the damage you are doing not only to yourself but to others around you. Not only are you influencing other girls or woman to follow in your ways... but do you realize that you are responsible for the effects that your lack of tzniyus has on bochrim and men who see you? You could look so gr8 and still be tzniyus!!
Ladies, Try to choose a woman who looks great and is in style while following the laws laws of tzniyus, and make them your role model! Lets work on this important basic foundation of Yiddishkeit and make the Rebbe Proud!!
(6/19/2012 10:29:49 PM)
48
Photographer
Do you need a photographer to take pictures of everyone wearing low cut tops and short skirts? I'll be happy to help.

-Concerned Yungerman
(6/19/2012 10:31:36 PM)
49
Thank You
I will have to admit. I don't plan to take action by speaking up to my untznius neighbor at the next opportunity, but this is definitely a wake up call for my own situation, over which I will be much more careful. Instead of thinking about our comfort level today, we need to think about the future of our daughters who will lack a sensitivity towards tznius if they see the way we are handling it now.
(6/19/2012 10:31:53 PM)
50
#4 learn sulchan aruch
you are right this is not Meah Shiarim, this is CH the Rebbes place and as such we have to dress the the Rebbe wants us to dress, the Rebbe once told Rabbi Yisroel Rosenfeld O"H "that we can learn from Williamson how woman should dress. so don't fabricate stories that the Rebbe would feel comfortable with the way some people dress today.
(6/19/2012 10:33:52 PM)
51
#48
IF YOUR a youngerman perhaps u want to see the untznius??
(6/19/2012 10:43:45 PM)
52
are the teachers tznius?
before you ask parents and the girls to be tznius, please ask your teachers to wear skirts that when they sit the knees don't show. its very hard for a mother to explain that to her daughter.
(6/19/2012 10:47:46 PM)
53
malca b
ella,

i am PROUD to call you a friend and proud of the fact you are now the TZNIUS LADY, a job most fitting you as i have never seen you NOT tznius.

i have pondered this problem in our neighborhood and could not figure out who to turn to, am glad to know i can now turn to you. B'H

only hatzlacha in your new position and dont let those who complain get to you - they complain cause the know how they dress is wrong
(6/19/2012 10:50:50 PM)
54
Where in Shulchan Aruch
I've asked quite a few people for the sources in Shulchan Aruch for the neckline and the elbows and knees and none were able to provide them to me.
If anybody cares to share the sources of the Halachas of Tznius from Shulchan Aruch it would be appreciated.
(6/19/2012 10:52:37 PM)
56
maybe talk the girls language
there should be a special curriculum made for tznius.......not just from a halachic perspective which is important- but also from a psychological perspective.
maybe if girls and ladies understood the consequences of dressing immodestly how it can make their daughters go after boys at a young age..... or loose the whole feeling for what they are learning about all day ...it may change things....
when a child sees his mother rebelling against the basic rules of our culture then they have the green light to rebel against their parents and get into all sorts of trouble...
the concept of reverse psychology applies more to adults then it does to young children....adults are just BIGGER babies....with the same nature....if you yell a kid not to go somewhere , within a day or two he will go ..... because you told him not to...now he/she is curious.... and also doesn't like to be told what to do.....
but if you explain the dangers of kidnapping, and that its really is in his/her best interest not to go there he/she may just listen.....he/she doesn't feel controlled.....no one wants to feel controlled...we fight control....every human being needs some level of individuality ....its how we are....

so if we can instil into our children the concept of kirvas eloikim LEE tov...that its simply a better happier safer life to go in these way they will do what's best for them in their own eyes not just in yours

please let me know what you think

psychologist
(6/19/2012 10:56:14 PM)
57
PLEASE ELLA DON'T READ THESE COMMENTS
and if you must, then don't take them to heart
there is something ugly about anonymous nasty vicious comments
truly ugly
Ella - keep doing what's right and don't read anonymous comments
(6/19/2012 10:56:22 PM)
58
TO MR. MEA SHEARIM
See this video of our Rebbe- enforcing tznius- while in a classy chabad style

http://www.chabad.org/1547902

(copy and paste link, as it won't work otherwise)
(6/19/2012 10:58:09 PM)
59
kol Hakovod!!
yes we must stand up. As a shlucha and camp director I learned to say something right away to counselors that are not dressed properly. I also learned to look for counselors who care about tznius!!
(6/19/2012 10:59:31 PM)
60
I live in Flatbush
And because I am Lubavitch I get approached by many who ask me about it. What can I say Crown Heights tznius is a laughing stock in Flatbush. It is an emergency. Get out of your box and listen to what outsiders think of Crown Heights tznius and belive me you will be shocked to your core.
(6/19/2012 11:00:11 PM)
61
You are awesome!
Kol Hakavod Mrs. Lerman!!
(6/19/2012 11:02:55 PM)
62
Disgusting!
I have a point to make, I was once picking my daughter up from school, when I saw this woman with a tichel, and a stroller, wearing leggings and a short flary almost MINI skirt, and a long sleeve sweater, waiting in the lobby of the school for her daughter. I got my daughter and walked outside, when I saw this same woman waiting at the crosswalk. It was a hot day, and she quickly took off her sweater, revealing underneath a short sleeve shirt. I was shocked! She just stood there, in the street, with a tichel on her head, (so her head was covered) and a tzinusdik daughter in a uniform, (her daughter appeared to be only in the 1st or 2nd grade) her daughter was perfectly tzinus, and she was not! I found this disgusting! I've seen this before, a woman I know, doesn't wear stockings, tights, or, socks, she just walks around bare legged, and wears sandals, that show off her whole foot, when her daughter wears tights and totally closed shoes. THIS is a GREAT problem that we face! We must do something!
(6/19/2012 11:11:00 PM)
63
seriously?!?!
how long are we gonna keep hiding behind this ''we didn't grow up with a rebbe'' thing?? what is being spoken about here is basic halachah!!!!!!


an overtired 19 yr old
(6/19/2012 11:14:11 PM)
64
HAKERES HA TOV
Our lives may not be perfect, but we all have so many brochos BH - health, food, homes, families etc. All of these brochos come to us from HaShem. Maybe I'm very simple, but I view dressing tzniusly as a way to personally say "thank you" to HaShem for all the good that He has benched me with. After all, you don't spit at someone after they have given you beautiful presents and to me, dressing in a cheap manner is showing yourself to be ungrateful. By the way, I've unfortunately observed how our male non-Jewish neighbors here in Crown Heights stare at our flashy girls and women in the street - I am quite sure that is NOT the attention we are hoping for !!
(6/19/2012 11:14:59 PM)
65
to #25
rebuking someone comes from love. parents would rebuke their children and not other children for doing something wrong because they love them. if you dont love or even care about someone, then you wont want to rebuke them.
(6/19/2012 11:15:02 PM)
66
oh this is exagerated
i am a girl in a frum chassidish family... dress tznius etc. first of all long sheitels are NOT BAD, 2nd of all the comment about "does ella care if the people she criticizes cry, " i agree. be sensitive. also to all the comments about makeup on shabbos there are makeups you can put on on shabbos. ella, its good what your doing but do it gently. not because all you care about is how chabad dresses. because then the girls and women will most probably go against what you say.
(6/19/2012 11:20:30 PM)
67
hello
i dont think it is anyone bisniss of how people dress wellcome to 2012 people no one is like that any more!
(6/19/2012 11:21:00 PM)
68
to #4
Your story about a non-frum girl wearing pants to the Rebbe MH"M has no connection at all to "supposedly" frum girls in Beis Rivka.
(6/19/2012 11:25:13 PM)
69
to # 1-
there's great lasting makeup - both water proof and not- revlon- eyeliner last almost 3 days!
(6/19/2012 11:26:09 PM)
70
Thank-you!
Thank-you to a brave woman who is taking a stand. I am from out of town and wonder how the standards have fallen so low. I wish her much success.
(6/19/2012 11:29:59 PM)
71
Re: #4
The point is that humiliating people was not and is not the Rebbe's Shita. It is wrong to single people out and humiliate them. Most importantly, it is also ineffective!
(6/19/2012 11:30:57 PM)
72
#54
i don't know who you asked,
Take the time and $ to buy a book called ňĺć ĺäăř ěáĺůä by Rabbi Elyau Falk. has the halochos and sources for every halocha under the sun (in tznius) don't blame any aveiros on ignorance of yourself and others.

for example: having the skirt covering your knee even when sitting. is written by our rebbe brought in lekutei sichos!
(6/19/2012 11:33:26 PM)
73
Please consider
I'll start with the positive,

It's nice to see a COL article with a name. It shows that you stand up for what you believe. Kol Hakavod. Also, I can agree with the school enforcing their rules, they have a right to.

Here are a few things that you should strongly consider,

1) It is not okay to label "dark nail polish" and you're own standards of tzniyus, as against halacha

2) It is rather peculiar that you have to tell a teacher about about her nail polish. Either the teacher is a good, chassidishe teacher which in that case who cares about her nail polish color!!!! or the nail polish color, in your mind, is just a symptom of how she is really not chasidish then she should probably not be a teacher in your school in the first place, changing her nail polish is the last thing you should do.

3) This may be relevant to a school but there's no way that this position of "tzinius lady" has any bearing in the real world.
(6/19/2012 11:36:41 PM)
74
thank you mrs lerman!
and anyone who works on improving tznius.
actually- it is those that dont dress tznius that are humiliating us as lubavitchers and are not "the lubavitch way". i dont understand how ppl dress in an insulting way to lubavitch- then point to those who are trying to help and say "that's not lubavitch way??"
anyway, i was shocked to see how teachers can dress in the streets and for that reason cannot send my daughters to that school. Baruch Hashem for those who set standards for their teachers and students and enforce them!
(6/19/2012 11:40:57 PM)
75
To #21 and #41
Good comments! Tznius is also about privacy and should be discussed with individuals on an individual basis, in a friendly way. Some females who have problems of tznius may have had a home that may not have been strong in yiras Shomoyim. Others may have been turned off because of experiences with teachers who though dressed tznius were disrespectful to the student. If someone is forced to do something, like wear tznius clothing in a school atmosphere, it does not mean that she has internalized the need for doing it when not pressured to do so. I think the mashpia system needs to be more formalized with N'shei chabad and the schools getting a list of women and girls in Crown Heights (and men could do this for men and boys too),, finding out if they have a mashpia and finding out who their mashpia is and how often the mashpia is contacted and finding mashpios for those who do not have. Then a meeting should be called of all mashpios with topics that should be discussed, including tznius and a a committee could be formed to supervised mashpios or to field any questions they may have to Rabbonim.
(6/19/2012 11:42:53 PM)
76
To Ella Lerman
Chazak V'Ematz. Now, if only someone can impress on the men how important it is for their wives to dress tzniusdikly, 80% of the problem would disappear.

Men, it is in your hands!!
(6/19/2012 11:48:52 PM)
77
Out-of-towmer
THANK YOU!!!

YOU ARE DOING WHAT I WAS TOO EMBARESSED TO DO. I LIVE OUT OF TOWN AND EVERY TIME I COME BACK TO CROWN HEIGHTS, I AM SHOCKED AS TO HOW SOME WOMAN DRESS.

The other day, my husband was on the street and a young lady was walking with chilren. Hw said that he doesn't know if she was married or not, but did look like she forgot to put on her skirt. He and an other man gave each other looks. "i can't walk in Crown HEIGHTS. It's much worse than Florida. " He coulnd't hold himself back and told her that she forgot to put on her skirt and be ashamed of herself for trying to make men sin".

He asked me why a woman would want to dress like that. If she has a husband, why would she want to flount her body.

I really did not know how to answer him.TALK ABOUT THE LACK OF TZNIUS IN CROWN HEIGHTS. They are young people, and young wives. If we are tring to get others closer to yiddishket, we should correct our own defisinshes.



Peo;ple from out of the area DO

(6/19/2012 11:49:38 PM)
78
Will it work? Positivity Works!
You're right, but probably not effective. Let's tackle this problem by shining a light.

First by feeling and displaying unconditional love to others, and then explaining the beauty of tzniyus:

By dressing tzniyusdikly we are allowing our inner personality and character to shine through, sending the message that we have a lot more to offer than just our appearances.
(6/19/2012 11:57:11 PM)
79
wow!
I've heard mrs lerman speak 3 tammuz several years ago, and I wish that she would type that WHOLE speech on this website. the torah teaches us what to be proud of, and what to be embarassed of.

when the torah teaches about ishas sotah, it says that removing the hair covering is embarassing. if someone decides to walk in CH with their hair uncovered, according to torah, she should be embarassed. it's quite sad that a person has to be told that they're doing an embarassing action. the woman is so disensitized! if the woman has to be told by an outsider (mrs lerman) that she's not dressed accordingly, it's ok to feel criticized. you are being criticized. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!

To #34 who writes does Mrs lerman think about if the other woman if also cries? it's a good action to cry. it means that you feel bad about the situation. mrs lerman feels bad to see what lubavitch has come to, and the woman is crying because she had a wake up call.

mrs lermans intention is not to embarass - it's to wake up the lady and make her aware of her lack of standards. if the woman claims that she's embarassed - she's using the wrong description. she may be embarassed to be told that in front of other women. but if she was really proud of how she was dressed, why would she be embarassed? because deep down she knows that she's wrong.

when girls in camp go around on trips in the summer and people ask why they're all wearing long jean skirts and looking "weird" according to the world's standards, the girls are not embarassed - they're proud. it's ok to look "weird" to the world if you're proud of who you are.

and if you're scared that you'll be embarassed - make sure to dress tzniusdik. and without realizing it, you'll feel alot better too!!

kol hakovod mrs lerman!!!
(6/20/2012 12:00:32 AM)
80
Yasher Koach!!!
Keep it up Mrs. Lerman! I'm shocked that people are even refuting this article- I guess they feel guilty so they feel the need to defend!
Don't be nispa'el! YOU are bringing Moshiach!
(6/20/2012 12:01:23 AM)
81
for all those who
are saying "hello...welcome to 2012!!" this is almost exactly what immigrants said when they came to america.

"hello...welcome to america! being frum was part of the old country! nobody cares what you have to say!"
but people do care. look at the changes that have happpened because the Rebbe said "america is NISHT andersh!" same thing, 2012 is nisht andersht
(6/20/2012 12:03:26 AM)
82
wow!
this is a bit off
firstly maybe for you but tznius is a very hard thing for alot of ppl yes the laws are black and white but remember i dont know about you rebetzin but ppl are only human and maybe you should give lectures or s/t screaming at ppl will only turn them off. who knows you could have already turned ppl away from yidishkeit. it has nothing to do wth that plane moshel you said thats ridiculos i know you have the right intentions but your wish will only be fulfilled if you do it properly. GIVE LECTURES OF THE BEAUTY OF TZNIUS IT IS MANDATORY. - DO NOT SCEAM AT PPL.
(6/20/2012 12:17:48 AM)
83
When the Rebbe was around...
I love when Ppl say if the Rebbe was around he wouldnt be so radical...I was around when the Rebbe was, and no one dear dress the way women do today. There was a different energy in the neighborhood. Being "modern" was wearing bobby socks on top of tights!!!! Kol hakavod to Ella Lerman, for trying to restore our community! I bet living next door to the Rebbes house inspires you to return our neighborhood to the way it used to be.
(6/20/2012 12:23:23 AM)
84
guess what?
i am married. i admit i wear shorter and tighter skirts/lower necklines/leggings etc. but in my daughters class(shes in 7th grade) the "chassidish ones" the ones who have chabad houses, who dress tznius, who are the "good girls" they talk about billboards,celebritiesetc. they go out to manicures as if they are older. i dont have a tv. my kids cant read non jewish book or hear non jewish music. and guess where she finds out all the juicy info in the world? from the chassidish girls who are on the best daveners , do chesed etc.
(6/20/2012 12:25:25 AM)
85
#36
#36 hit the bullseye. I'd love to hear success stories of girls who were seriously out of line tznius-wise who were impacted and influenced for the better by this approach. Ch"v to dispute Halacha - tznius is tznius.

But this approach is the opposite of that classic Israeli expression: al tehi tzodek, tihiye chacham. B'chochma isberiru....
(6/20/2012 12:37:43 AM)
86
to #31
ive seen stupid comments in the past but u my friend deserve a metal!
(6/20/2012 12:47:20 AM)
87
hatzlocho
what annoys me is that this avaira is done 'maizid. we don't do any aveira purposely, knowingly. you cannot compare this to loshon horo or lying, there is always some self justification ut to get dressed purposely agaist the rules???I guess it is quite a struggle, Hasehm yaazor!
(6/20/2012 12:50:51 AM)
88
teach
unless you teach the lady's and girls why they are so special as a bas yisroel it wont matter any tznius halacha you demand of them.
the schools need to show and explain what they are about.
(6/20/2012 12:52:21 AM)
89
We Are Love Deficient!
"Well, it is my Rebbe, my Rebbe’s community, my Eibershter and my Torah that is being disgraced. I can’t just sit at home!”

What about the love deficiency in our community?
How many children, teens and even adults are neglected, shunned and even rejected every day?!

There are so many people in our neighborhood with no true friends, nobody who loves them and is there for them when they are in distress, they have no shoulder to cry on, nobody to rely on!

Often many of these people do not conform to the rules of our community. Their non-conformity is often an expression of them crying out to others: 'Look at me, there is something wrong with me, I need help! Please pay attention to me!'

But instead we ignore that, and we just yell at them for their deficiencies in their behavior or dress or any other fault we can find.

If there is anybody who wants to make a real difference in others lives in our community in a true and effective way, the only way to do it is to love. If you will show love to another in a way that they know it, they will feel embarrassed and it will even hurt them to do anything that disturbs you.

Nobody went in front of the Rebbe in a manner that would hurt him, not because he would, Chas Vesholom, yell at them, but because they knew he loved them.

That is what I remember the Rebbe teaching me, I hope others remember the same.

"Well, it is my Rebbe, my Rebbe’s children, the Eibershter's children and my fellow Jews that are being disgraced. I can’t just sit at home!”
(6/20/2012 12:57:18 AM)
90
anonymouse
gr8 article
(6/20/2012 1:12:48 AM)
91

"but I asked for the job of tznius lady. I told Bais Rivkah that someone needed to stand in front of their doors and tell mothers that they couldn’t enter if they were not dressed according to Jewish law, and I offered to do the job."

All due respect to Mrs. Lerman but it seems she enjoys policing other peoples lives instead if her own - she even asked to do it. She would be well served working on her own tzinius, acting as a living example, then pointing out flaws to other people - especially young emotionally sensitive girls/children. I can't imagine the Rebbe approving of someone designated - in this case self appointed - to point out other people their flaws. She could make better use of her time.
(6/20/2012 1:27:02 AM)
92
MRS LERMAN, BE BLESSED!
TO: 4, 14, 20 ETC.
SURELY YOU HEARD OF THE BURGLAR WHO BROKE INTO A HOME, FELL AND BROKE SOME BONES.. HE SUED THE OWNER FOR HIS INJURIES?!?. THE LADIES "WALKING THE STREETS" INAPPROPRIATELY DRESSED IN THIS SCHUNA ARE BREAKING IN AND THEN COMPLAIN ABOUT THE NEGATIVE RESPONSE SAYING IT CAUSES THEM EMBARRASSMENT?. C'MON GALS, YOU ARE NO DIFFERENT THAN THE BURGLAR.. YOU BREAK IN WITH IMPROPER DRESS AND BEHAVIOR AND EXPECT RESPECT?????
WHAT EXACTLY ARE YOU TRYING TO PROVE??
DO YOU ENJOY THE ATTENTION FROM SOMEONE ELSE'S SPOUSE? R U HAPPY WHEN YOUR'S IS BUSY EYING ANOTHER GAL STRUTING THE STREET INAPPROPRIATELY DRESSED? THIS IS ENDLESS AND THE FINAL RESULT IS NOT A HAPPY ONE. THE WAY IT WAS, WORKED –WE HAD COHESIVE MARRIAGES THAT LASTED AND WHAT DO WE HAVE NOW?
IT DOES NOT TAKE A ROCKET SCIENTIST TO SEE WHERE WE WERE AND WE ARE NOW.
APPROPRIATE BEGGINIINGS RESULTS IN POSITIVE ENDINGS.
LET’S PRAY THAT WE SEE THE GEULA NOW!!!
(6/20/2012 1:49:57 AM)
93
May Hashem shower you & yours with abundant blessings!
What a Hartzigue piece!
Mrs. Ella Lerman, you are a true Eshes Chayil.
A valiant Chayal/soldier of the Rebbe -
Courageous, forthright, full of caring and Mesirus Nefesh.
I am proud to call consider you my friend and treasure your efforts on behalf of this noble cause - Tznius
With great respect and admiration,
Molly Resnick
Bnos Melech B'Yachad
(6/20/2012 1:53:31 AM)
94
oh well
I started to read this article with an open mind,but when i came across a certain point i completely switched off.All through the article Mrs Lerman keeps stating that woman should adhere to halacha-which noone can argue with.Then she states "why should woman look up to other woman if they have dark nail varnish and long shaitels".This is not a halachic issue but a personal opinion and the Rebbe ZTL would never have brought up such subject.So in affect the woman who challenged her was right in saying stick to black and white and not grey areas.When we as a Jewish community want to be a light to the nations we must wonder off and make up things along the way and more importantly should not feel the pressure to do that by following the chassidishe community.Heres to bringing moshiach in the true Torah way.Amen!
(6/20/2012 2:07:58 AM)
95
Dear #4
Time to take a good look at yourself in the mirror and see
how you can and should improve . Instead of getting offended
please realize that the Laws of Tznius apply to you as well.
(6/20/2012 2:12:32 AM)
96
italy
let me add a little detail, we in italy have a very hard time, keeping our girls away from what they see in the street, not against halacha, but the ''look'', very in ''style'', and then comes a day exp. chof beis shvat etc, and they come back from ch, with ''news'' for their mom, ''you have to see how girls get dressed...'' some girls are not from frum fam, and let me tell you we have a very hard time explaining why ch looks the way it does. think when you get dressed that your actions go very far, the good and the not so perfect ones.
hatzlacha to all who work on tznius
(6/20/2012 2:18:27 AM)
97
To #18 and #54
The Shulchan Aruch's laws of Tznius pertain exclusively to men, mandating how they are to behave. Women's Tznius is for the most part defined by the community.
The yenta haters who don't like this community's new standards just resent they're too unattractive to dress this way.
(6/20/2012 2:19:58 AM)
98
shulchan aruch
stop screaming shulchan aruch because the shulchan aruch does not say you should tell women please leave cause your not dressed modestly enough, and the rebbe definitely never did anything of the sort by dollars etc.
(6/20/2012 2:29:44 AM)
99
kol hakovod
most important mivtza for the future of our girls
(6/20/2012 2:36:10 AM)
100
Sheitels
I know many frum women, who take tznius seriously, who look presentable and represent Lubavitch properly.
But their Sheitels are long, silky and sleek.
And there is nothing wrong.
This is something the older women have a hard time with, because in their day Sheitels were made out of straw, and therefore didn't go past shoulder length.
Maybe a rov can pasken what is the appropriate length?
(6/20/2012 3:16:15 AM)
101
And you wonder why?
And you wonder why so many people go off track. When I moved to crown heights I was religious. I dressednuobserved the Jewish laws.
(6/20/2012 3:51:15 AM)
102
to #23
thank you
(6/20/2012 3:59:12 AM)
103
A Mother of Beth Rivkah Students:
I have daughters out of BR already, and daughters who are still in HS and Elementary.... I have worked hard throughout the years to ensure my daughters follow the proper way in every aspect of their conduct/dress/speech. Baruch Hashem, it has paid well!! BUT... no matter how much I convey to my daughters, most of their waking hours/day time is spent at school. I want to share something that happen just this past Sunday (6/17/12). I was coming back from shopping w/ one of my highschoolers and accross us in the subway car was one of the 12th grade teachers from Beth Rivkah, who has not yet taught her (soon, Bezrat Hashem). I couldn't help but notice that while seated her skirt was ABOVE (not even barely covering!) her knees... as was her daughter's skirt (who was with her). My daughter said to me, you wouldn't believe who she is.... and she said that she will be teaching her next year, And today as I read your article, Mrs Lerman, I couldn't help but wonder... are you stopping the teachers by the door before they come to school too?? And if yes, who will teach our daughters, as so many teachers (both in Elementary, or rather I should say, mostly in Elementary, and many in High School too) may "seem" to be tznius at first, but when they are sitting, their skirts do NOT cover their knees?? And what about all those young teachers who teach our very young daughters and who are far from being a real Dugma Chaya in this aspect??? I will never forget the comment of the parents of a girl who today has pulled herself together, is married and has a child, but who back in late Elementary years became rebelious and the state lasted a good few years... and why? She came home saying: how can the teacher try to convey Halachos about tznius when from my seat as she was sitting by her desk I could literally see her upper legs almost to her underwear???? She sits accross from us preaching, and she crosses her legs and one can see everything! This careless action from a teacher caused many years of anguish to her parents who are amazing people, Chassidish, everything, her mother is one of the most Tzanuah women I have ever met, soft spoken, Aydel!!! And she had to endure years until her daughter finally turned the "corner" again and became a Chassidishe and Tzniusdikeh woman/mother!! Mrs Lerman, my daughter adores you, and I know you have the highest regard for her... you have worked with her in several occasions on different school projects. I thank you for your dedication!! And I know I speak for many when I ask, again... will the teachers be stopped too?? Will they be told to not enter the building dressed so disdainfully??? Will the rules extend to one and all, beginning with the ones that spend most of the day hours with our girls, and who through their unspoken actions diminish respect to Hashem's Halachos?? Will they also be held to the higher standard expected from the mothers and students??? The school alone cannot accomplish/effect changes in what has been going on, but neither can we the parents alone!! The standards have to be one and the same, outside of the building (us) and within (the teachers)!! If we are meant to be successful, teachers must be held accountable as well for the image they (even if unconsciously) portray!!! Our daughters are watching you sitting, standing, bending, walking, breathing!!! Our daughters' Neshamos are screaming to be guided, but it has to be done in an achdus/conscious manner!!Help us help you, help us help our daughters, help us help the mothers, help us bring Moshiach!!
(6/20/2012 5:10:41 AM)
104
The girl you call "immodest" is crying out for s/thing
Don't be fooled that it boils down to rules being enforced!
The girl who's slowly shedding her tznius is silently asking you for far deeper assistance than tznius discipline. Perhaps, if mechanchim could start listening to their students; relating to them on a real level; promoting authenticity in yiddishkeit rather than a flawless reputation; dignifying the challenge that students/families have rather than shaming; addressing emotional, psychological and intimate issues frankly; then maybe, just maybe, we wouldn't have to run around town like chickens without heads, trying to put the concept of tznius back on the map.

WAKE UP CROWN HEIGHTS! THIS COMMUNITY OUGHT BE THE MOST BEAUTIFUL, HAPPY, HEALTHY, AND YES, TZNIUS PLACE, BUT WE HAVE MADE IT A COMMUNITY THAT WHISPERS OF NOTHING BUT REPUTATIONS, FAMILY STATUS, AND HOW TO BEST HIDE IMPERFECTIONS.

Focus on the button, and the girl will close it now, but leave much more than the button behind in years to come.

Focus on the girl, and the buttons will close of their own accord.

Want to reinstate tznius? Reinstate authenticity, emotional health, community maturity, genuine connection to Hashem, and people will dress differently without being told.
(6/20/2012 5:15:30 AM)
105
Been there, Done that...thanks for taking a stand publicly
First of all I am surprised that this article has not been on Collive before today. Although I am a Shlucha I missed your talk at the Kinus. I am certain many others did too. Glad to see it here. This is probably the best gift we can give our Rebbe!

I am sure that many of us have experienced situations that put us to the test, on either side of the fence.

I found myself taking a stand with a Shliach regarding office staff. A particular sect'y was not dressing tzniyusdik and working in a Chabad office with Shluchim. I suggested that a sign be posted with an office dress code. I was told that it would offend this woman as she would realize it was targeting her. I was shocked to say the least! (men, husband can also take this wake up call for the sake of tzniyus...their wives need you!)

It turns out that it was discovered that this worker was a non-Jew after all and the Rebbe's mosad was compromised over a long period of time.

When something is the right thing al pi Torah there should be no compromise. In the end, the truth speaks for itself. There is no justification for compromise. Why is this kuleh any different than reform Judaism r'l making compromises as they see fit, toying with our Holy Torah.

I invite my fellow sisters to wake up to standing tall in our responsibilities with the koach of our Rabbayim, and bringing up a generation of children who will greet Moshiach!
(6/20/2012 7:15:26 AM)
106
Woman on Kingston
We need a few woman to stand on Kingston Ave and remind the women tp dress properly
(6/20/2012 8:23:06 AM)
107
I dont understand
Going green is a choice, going tsnius is not, so stop giving green exampels.
(6/20/2012 8:25:56 AM)
108
Learn from those who do it better
Perhaps Lubavitch schools could take a leaf out of the non-Lubavitch ones. They seem to have their tznius better controlled. Not just by how they dress....
(6/20/2012 8:28:30 AM)
109
Rochel
Thank you, thank you, thank you....it's about time!! When a woman has to put a schmatta over her lap in shul because her skirt/dress is too short, she should be told.....I am going to give her a copy of your article!! Kol HaKovod
(6/20/2012 8:36:17 AM)
110
Yerovom ben Nevot
Yerovom ben Nevod became melech because he had the "courage" to criticize Shlomo Hamelech for his religious shortcomings.

We see how well that worked out.
(6/20/2012 8:44:07 AM)
111
I am a teacher
I am a teacher and I have worked in a number of Jewish and non-Jewish schools. Many prestigious private school have very strict dress code. The rules are very clear. If a student doesn't comply, guess what, he or she is not allowed into class. Parents don't get upset with the school they take it out with their kids. How could following the most basic halochos of Shulchan Oruch be of a discussion? It isn't about Kadesh B'Mutor loch, it is poshut ossur. Chassidus is not just an intellectual pursuit, it is a way of life. How canwe call ourselves Chasidei Chabad whenwe cannot even convince our children to dress tznius?????
BTW Can we ask the Lubavitch boys to tuck their shirts in :) It isn't about tznius, but they look like zhlobs.
(6/20/2012 8:48:51 AM)
112
oy vey
Oy, I do not envy this woman... What a job.
Thank you for setting some standards, it's about time. I really hope it's not too late.
(6/20/2012 8:51:10 AM)
113
Thank you!
Thank you Mrs Lerman for taking on this noble task. You are a very special person. You have the respect of many Frum people in our community for what you've done and will continue doing. Ashrecha V'tov Loch! How lucky you are to have the courage to take on tznius in Crown Heights. We are proud of you!
(6/20/2012 8:51:49 AM)
114
to #110
Wrong analogy: Yerovom promoted religious tolerance and made it 'ok' for Yidden not to follow Torah. Ella is more like nevi'im of the past that reminded the Yidden about the basic truths they had abandoned.
(6/20/2012 8:54:59 AM)
115
Mrs Lerman you are a true chassid
you have gone completely out of your comfort zone to stand up for what is right. If only i could be like you...and i will try to be!
I'm sure you can take strength from knowing how proud the Rebbe must be! May Hashem bless you and your family! and may this important work you are doing bring moshiach now!!
(6/20/2012 9:00:09 AM)
116
OMG
This article is getting more comments than the 'Mattisyahu reverts to being a punk' article
(6/20/2012 9:07:01 AM)
117
sh'koach MrsLerman
Thank you so much Mrs Lerman. Perhaps girls from Beis Rivka will start looking more like Bnos Menachem talmidos.
(6/20/2012 9:23:39 AM)
118
Let's not be so judgemental!
Please don't critisize Mrs. Lerman. I heard the speach (a recording) - It it nogea b'nefesh to her , she realy means it with an emes not in a way of "holier than thou" - the Rebbe said about shleimus Haartez - "az s'tut vei shreit men!" - when it hurts a person screams - even if this is not the most politicaly correct thing to do. I give her lots of credit for taking a stand and DOING something not just complaiining - as most of us do (myself included). I can't imagine her shoutinig at someone , I'm sure she tells them in a respectful tactful way.
I live on shlichus in a country where people walk around soo untzniusdik (to say it nicely - without getting tooo descriptive)) and I don't live near a beach but in middle of the city! All I can say is that you can clearly see what a disgrace it is to a woman, and seeing billboard of undressed women, I feel uncomfortable, especially if walking with my husband and especially my sons! Hashem gives us these laws FOR OUR BENEFIT - FOR OUR PROTECTION - b'gashmius Ub'ruchniyus. it's NOT easy! When a non- lubaitcher relative started criticizing - I explained that this is the nisayon of our time -so the yetzer horah works overtime!FOr those who don't have this problem don't judge - it is a nisayon, be happy you don't have this yetzer horah - butwe all have one! Let's not judge others - one either side but encourage each other in the right direction !
May we greet Moshiach NOW!
(6/20/2012 9:37:58 AM)
119
Kol Hamoisif Goreah
Where does it say in halachah that you cant wear black nail polish. By adding unnecessary restrictions, you are detracting from a good cause and you make it very easy for people to categorize you as Mea Shearim, Taliban etc
(6/20/2012 9:39:16 AM)
120
Well intentioned, but grossly misguided
I have read and reread shulchan aruch, and nowhere do I see any discussion of dark colored nail polish. Is that really the biggest issue here?

The point that Mrs. Lerman and so many other well intentioned but grossly misguided souls are missing is this - the more you push the extreme, the more people will push back. Chabad today is becoming less and less the Chabad I knew and grew up with. We have become petty, we've become intolerant, we've become overly judgmental, we've started to demonize anyone who we think it not up to par, we write off boys and girls too easily, we threaten to kick kids out of school for "problems" that were not problems a few years ago ... we've become everything we used to look down on as extreme. And the price we pay for pushing too hard to one side is what we are experiencing today, and tznius is just part of the problem.

Or put differently, the tznius problem is not a problem, it's a symptom. And if you want to address the problem, well, you need to address the real problem.
(6/20/2012 9:44:33 AM)
121
WRONG APPROACH
these women that are not dressing in a tzniyus manner would very likely be more influenced by a reprimand coming from a young, handsome man. being as this is exactly who they are trying to impress in the first place, perhaps if this man would tell them they look ugly dressed like this, and perhaps a longer skirt would make them more attractive, they would respond more positively.
for those that think that this is a tzniyus issue, note that reb yochanan would sit outside where the women were...
(6/20/2012 9:45:15 AM)
122
Yochi G
heh.
"I was shaking and crying"
"I was crying"

Bet you don't give a hoot about what the women and girls you police every day do once they're out of your eyesight. I bet it doesn't matter one single iota if they break down crying at home, have panic or nervous attacks or whatever.

Does that matter to "lady Tznius" eh?

Thats the Merirus and Hirhur Teshuva the Kakla penimaah d'lo ishtama that the Rebbe Rashab discusses at the beginning of Samech Vav. Nothing to worry about there...
(6/20/2012 9:48:10 AM)
123
To 111
There are halachic reasons (Hotza on Shabbos, based on Igros Moshe and others) for leaving shirts untucked.
(6/20/2012 9:48:20 AM)
124
Friends are supposed to be "cool", teachers are different.
Amazing! but you lost me a bit when you said...

"That Friday night, I dreamt that I saw this student walking in the street with pants on. On Shabbos day, after a Pirkei Avos shiur, I told my friends what had happened and what I learned from it all. I didn’t speak to the girl, not only because I didn’t want to embarrass her, but because I didn’t want to appear not cool. I knew that the girl liked me and I didn’t want her to think of me as an annoying, nagging teacher.

When we don’t speak up it is because we want to appear hip and cool, G-d forbid."

You sounded so true to being a true mechanech. You were showing how midos tovos override embarrassment. But then you gave a story about a girl, who you dreamt wore pants- and therefore it was a sign. How do you know that having a dream about someone wearing "untznius" clothing just means that you think about the girls who are not dressed modestly all day so much that it affects you at night.

Besides, how does that prove that you want to be a cool teacher? Maybe not speaking up -in that case- was a case where you actually made sure to be tznius yourself.

Tznius is not just a tribute of what you wear. It is moreso about how one acts. I agree with MOST of your thoughts-however, as a mechanech you must teach midos derech eretz before scolding girls over one button (which probably was an accident if she is the daughter of a shluchim).

If i learned anything from chabad/lubavitch it is that being receptive of people who may not be up to YOUR frum standards could go a long way to being mikarev many jews in the future. - Getting to the point where you are crying and other women are spitting does not help our cause. The batei Hamikdash were not destroyed because women had short skirts or opened thier shirt a tad too low for other women, but because jews fought with each other.......

your job puts you in a very difficult spot halachically, make sure to bring us closer to binyan yerushalayim shlishi b'miheira viyamenu amein

(6/20/2012 9:51:28 AM)
125
116
Ye, because this one actually has some relevance. It is encouraging to see that people care some way or other.
(6/20/2012 9:55:15 AM)
(6/20/2012 10:07:22 AM)
127
104 has brains in the right place!
thank you!
(6/20/2012 10:09:24 AM)
128
shock
i am in shock that tznius is being put before the fact that you may be imbarrassing someone, it is neither your place nor your right to tell people how to dress, these peopple choose everyday to be religious and should be respected for that. its not easy, just because you are at that place in your life, doesnt mean everyone is. and noone should be forced to do anything, especially when it comes to their spirituality and service to G-d, that has to come from a true, sincere and loving place. you telling people something so personal about what their wearing and about their spiritual Avodah is not only inappropriate but ineffective, it just makes people angry, most of the women living in CH know the halochos and it is up to them to apply them how they feel appropriate. besides only a pervert looks up girls skirts as they climb stairs... its a complete violation !!! halachah states your skirt should cover when you stand or sitr, i dont remember ever reading anything about stair climbing.
(6/20/2012 10:11:20 AM)
129
you won't have much luck.
I don't want to be coerced to dress a certain way if I myself am not at that level. EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT. you can't force people to follow you like sheep. it will NEVER work.

Also #19: "for every head that a Jewish women causes to turn, she pays a severe price after 120 as well as now. Every time a man gazes into her eyes, the zohar says that a piece of her Neshama goes to him." this is b.s. there is a reason the zohar isn't supposed to be learned until you are 40. BARELY ANY OF US ARE ON THIS LEVEL!
(6/20/2012 10:16:35 AM)
130
yearning for better days...........
.........Wwhen things were simpler.thte yetzer haara to look fashionaable is very big today....the 'finest' and 'best' wear short pencil skirts,and somehow its become 'acceptable'.
IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE!!PLEASE!!!give a thought to the younger generation thaat are looking at you.halacha is halachaa no matterr what century we are in!!you can look just as good with a longer skirt,closed neck,etc.fashion is not an excuse for not keeping basic halacha.aannybody who is unsure about what the halavchos are,can easily look them up or talk to a mashpia.
Gimmel tamuz is coming.let's try to improve.there is so much at stake.
A heartbroken lubavitcher
(6/20/2012 10:19:36 AM)
131
Sources in Halacha
The halachos of Tznius are published in sefer Kvuda Bas Melech by Rabbi Moshe Wiener. The sefer is endorsed by the greatest halachic authorities of our times, including the major Rabonei Anash. There is an English section. The CH Beth Din sent a letter to all Anash encouraging them to support the reprinting of this sefer, but so far very few have responded.
(6/20/2012 10:31:08 AM)
132
lol
comedy central
(6/20/2012 10:50:51 AM)
133
We need some volunteeers on Kingston for the summer
Mi Lahashem Alei. Come forth valiant woman and stand on Kingston. Like the slogan goes. If you see somthing say somthing
(6/20/2012 11:05:31 AM)
134
Fat legs
I cnt understand why woman want to show off fat legs scars and problems wuith their feet. They would look better if they covered up their imperfections
(6/20/2012 11:07:07 AM)
135
Question for Mrs.Lerman
I live in a small community. What do I say when the head Shluchos and their daughters wear their skirts to short?
(6/20/2012 11:24:52 AM)
136
I don't remember nailpolish being in the Shulchan Aruch
There's nothing immodest or "nisht tzniusdikke" about dark colors on your nails. The article kept saying how its all about halacha but there were way too many assumptions made to be only concerned with the straight-up-wrong.
(6/20/2012 11:25:48 AM)
137
Amazing!
What an inspiration! Women like Mrs. Lerman bring hope to our lost world.
(6/20/2012 11:27:52 AM)
138
maybe col should put up the tape onlive thanks
(6/20/2012 11:29:57 AM)
139
PRACTICAL SUGGESTION
I already wrote a comment, but I keep thinking about it. From seeing the amount of comments in such a short t ime -I think we need a seperate forum/blog/site to discuss/vent etc about tznius. Everyone is so passionate about it - both those who want improvement and those who feel hurt. We need a place where we can share our frustration, struggles, ideas for improvement, questions asked anon and answered by mashpiios/rabbanim with sensitivity ,halachos, stories articles and inspiration all on this topic, but it needs to be a safe place for those struggling, and inviting for those who need chizuk to want to check it out also. Could have a kids section for younger girls, etc etc.
Just giving a practical suggestion -it is a big undertaking if someone has the means and wants to act on it.
Would love to hear reactions - what others think aboutt this
note to collive: maybe publish this seperately to see if there is an interest for this
(6/20/2012 11:30:37 AM)
140
Read Bereshis 38:25
Rashi explains that Tamar was willing to be burnt alive rather than embarrass Yehudah, and from here we learn that it is preferable for a person to be throw into a fiery furnace rather than embarrass someone.
(6/20/2012 11:58:40 AM)
141
Yehuda
She is Truly Tznius, I Never knew she existed, That is the Meaning of Tznius
(6/20/2012 12:04:23 PM)
142
A Change of Focus
Perhaps those who are insecure about their own body image feel the need to cover it up with such precision. I'm sorry, but in today's 105 degree CH weather, I am burdened to see women wearing black tights and long-sleeved sweaters. Tznius is not about covering up every ounce of skin on our bodies... it's about respecting yourself, having a positive self-image, and dressing with dignity. Dress in a way that makes you feel vibrant, happy, beautiful, and positive about life!
(6/20/2012 12:06:08 PM)
143
AGREE WITH #104
LIFE HAS COME DOWN TO THIS MAD TZNIUS WAR BECAUSE OUR PEOPLE HAVE COMPLETELY LOST THE PLOT!!!!
(6/20/2012 12:17:55 PM)
144
wheres the love?
I'm male...
I behave and dress modestly in my life as do my wife and children. All in the letter and spirit of halacha, hantzna leches etc etc. In general I believe most of the tznius problem emanates from the men so I do my part.

To the self described "tznius lady": I would reccomend you focus on improving yourself first and foremost and if you truly love someone then by all means encourage them to become better as well...

The problem is that while your heart is seemingly in the right place you miss the big picture. I think the reason you're getting the negative responses is because you care more about tznius (a very important issue, granted) and less about people.

Be judgemental by all means (I know I am). Just understand that people have no patience for someone who lectures them about one thing and otherwise couldnt give a darn about other struggles they may be facing.

Sorry but you're no hero. Do a favor for a fellow jew - in GASHMIYUS. I promise you that if you do a favor for a fellow Jew even if it makes you uncomfortable (especially if it makes you uncomfortable) you will have accomplished much more than by having lectured them on their tznius. Your fellow jews gashmiyus is your ruchniyus and if you care about them they'll care about you too.

Learn from the Rebbe. I and countless others harbor such a strong feeling of love towards the Rebbe. The Rebbe knew our failings more than we cared to admit. The rebuke was sometimes sharp and most deservedly so. Yet the love was always there. Enduring. And that's why even people like me who are way on the bottom of the tanyas totem pole of will do whatever we can because and only because the Rebbe asked it from us.

Anyway leave the girls and women alone. Lav achbra ganav chura ganav.
(6/20/2012 12:29:07 PM)
145
whoa!
in response to those claiming it is not the chabad way: i think that there is a difference with rebuking and enforcing a rule. when she stands in front of the school she is enforcing a school rule for the sake of our children and community and is not trying to rebuke you. . . and to 142 i personally feel more comfortable in black tights than in socks or stockings so for me it is a matter of comfort vs. body image
(6/20/2012 12:32:13 PM)
146
Thank you Mrs. Lerman!!!!!!
Please don´t take to heart those comments written by people who simply don´t have their priorities straight
Notice how most people have been wating for someone like you to take the stand
THANK YOU!
(6/20/2012 12:42:54 PM)
147
11 and 12
some ppl put on makeup b4 shabbos/yom tov and it stays on until after shabbos /yom tov ends
(6/20/2012 1:35:32 PM)
148
Someone is awake
Thanks #104, (it was starting to feel like the twilight zone).....after your comment I scrolled right to the bottom ennuff said!
(6/20/2012 2:04:57 PM)
149
Dracheha darchei shalom
To Number 4,

1) You are correct. We should not be dragging the Rebbe’s name into this. Tznius is a law in Shulchan Aruch and not lifnim m’shuras ha-din i.e. chasidishkeit.

2) You are correct. The Rebbe’s actions in your story are opposite to this lady’s actions. Then again, after making a person feel welcome the Rebbe always demanded of EVERY individual, regardless of level, that they increase in their level of observance. He never accepted the status quo.

3) You are correct. One must inform and inspire through education and voluntary action. So what are you doing to inform and inspire others?

4) I presume you are also #71. You are correct. We should not humiliate people and if we do it will most likely be ineffectual and may cause them to be even more extreme.

In Hayom Yom it discusses the correct method for rebuking others. It has also been the topic of the Daily Dose on Chabad.org the last couple of days. May I suggest that Mrs. Lerman review these pisgamim with their references and consider modifying her tactics in a way that the recipients may be more receptive? Or penimi rather than or makif.

I sat at many of the Rebbe’s farbrengens. On many occasions the Rebbe expressed strong emotions decrying a situation and demanding change. Some well known examples are ‘who is a Jew’ and not ceding territories of Eretz Yisroel. I heard him say countless time the words ‘v’ayn poizeh pe u’metzaftzef’ i.e. no one says a word. It is important to try to do something and not sit on the sidelines and watch the situation deteriorate, but it must be in a way that is according to the Torah about which it is said ‘dracheha darchei shalom.’

Dovid
(6/20/2012 2:06:29 PM)
150
to #4
I guess you have yet to read through the Rebbe's Igros and sichos! Enough said; a true am haeretz!
(6/20/2012 2:21:57 PM)
151
The best place in the world
Crown heights is a wondeful place, with wonderful people.
We are a good people and will do the right thing.
(6/20/2012 2:23:11 PM)
152
Embarressed??
Why do you feel humiliated when someone points out to you that something is against halacha or Chabad Minhag? Because it's tznius!
Do you get insulted if someone points out to you that you've gotten a splattering of ketchup on yourself or that your little sunny boy fell and got dirty in the mud?
It's just that you feel you need to defend yourSELF!
(6/20/2012 2:28:12 PM)
153
#18
yes, that's the way of the Haskallah!
(6/20/2012 2:29:39 PM)
154
A fan
Mrs Lerman! Such an inspirational person. A real roll model!
(6/20/2012 3:00:57 PM)
155
Thank you Mrs. Lerman
Thanks to you I am what I am! When you approached me and I saw the emesdigkeit in your eyes I knew i needed to make a change. I was waiting to hear something from someone. i knew I was doing something incorrect. Thank you for giving me the opportunity for thanking you publicly.
(6/20/2012 3:08:07 PM)
156
Well writen article
!
(6/20/2012 3:14:16 PM)
157
Amazing
Mrs Lerman, it's wonderful to hear how brave you are for the sake of Tznius. This is obviously something hard to do. May Hashem repay you with brochos ad bli dai!
(6/20/2012 3:29:35 PM)
158
Put pictures up
Put pictures of all the non tnius ladies on the interenet so they will be ashamed to appear that way
(6/20/2012 3:38:09 PM)
159
to 154
Why don't I believe a word of that comment?
(6/20/2012 3:41:06 PM)
160
Friends are supposed to be "cool", teachers are different.
Amazing! but you lost me a bit when you said...

"That Friday night, I dreamt that I saw this student walking in the street with pants on. On Shabbos day, after a Pirkei Avos shiur, I told my friends what had happened and what I learned from it all. I didn’t speak to the girl, not only because I didn’t want to embarrass her, but because I didn’t want to appear not cool. I knew that the girl liked me and I didn’t want her to think of me as an annoying, nagging teacher.

When we don’t speak up it is because we want to appear hip and cool, G-d forbid."

You sounded so true to being a true mechanech. You were showing how midos tovos override embarrassment. But then you gave a story about a girl, who you dreamt wore pants- and therefore it was a sign. How do you know that having a dream about someone wearing "untznius" clothing just means that you think about the girls who are not dressed modestly all day so much that it affects you at night.

Besides, how does that prove that you want to be a cool teacher? Maybe not speaking up -in that case- was a case where you actually made sure to be tznius yourself.

Tznius is not just a tribute of what you wear. It is moreso about how one acts. I agree with MOST of your thoughts-however, as a mechanech you must teach midos derech eretz before scolding girls over one button (which probably was an accident if she is the daughter of a shluchim).

If i learned anything from chabad/lubavitch it is that being receptive of people who may not be up to YOUR frum standards could go a long way to being mikarev many jews in the future. - Getting to the point where you are crying and other women are spitting does not help our cause. The batei Hamikdash were not destroyed because women had short skirts or opened thier shirt a tad too low for other women, but because jews fought with each other.......

your job puts you in a very difficult spot halachically, make sure to bring us closer to binyan yerushalayim shlishi b'miheira viyamenu amein

(6/20/2012 3:44:04 PM)
161
summerise
#94 and #120 comments are spot on.Lets keep to halacha and not start on woman with dark nail varnish(horror horror!!)This is not the Lubavitch way.
(6/20/2012 3:47:57 PM)
162
The main thing
Beautfully written article
Although mrs lerman does have a valid point, and some Jewish women do not dress appropriately, people have to realize that tzniys is not the only factor when it comes to yiddishkeit. Most peopl see a girl on the street wearing something inappropriate and immediately assume that she is not religious or doesn't care about yidishkeiy or whatever. This is not necessarily true. Being that we do not know that individual personally, we can't just pass judgement based on how s/he is dressed.
Clothing is not always a persons identifier. I am in beis Rivka high school, and I know a few girls who come to school each day dressed in accordance with the school dress code and Halacha, and generally dress modestly, but don't keep other major halachos. I would have never guessed that they were at this level, because they always seem so tzniys.
One more point- being a frum Jew is defined by keeping shabbos, kosher, and family purity. There are people in crown heights, and even modern orthodox people, who are technically more religious than some tzniys people I know.
Tzniys isn't everything, folks.
(6/20/2012 3:54:02 PM)
163
numbers
i think this article has the most comments
(6/20/2012 3:58:41 PM)
164
Dark Lipstick acceptable, but not nail polish, WHY?
Dark lipstick applied with good taste is certainly acceptable (burgandy, wine, berry, etc.), but a similar colored nail polish is not--what's the rationale,here? Black nail polish for sure is an eye sore, but assuming that the nails are neatly manicured and short, colors from the rose/burgandy family? what's the problem here?. am I missing something. Pleaes advise, someone?
(6/20/2012 4:03:54 PM)
165
You said it best!
# 37 hit the nail on the head. The problem is summed up by that little episode about the teacher with the dark nail polish. If br holds that dark nail polish is not appropriate for a bas chabad ( an arguement in and of itself) then how does it help to argue with the teacher to take it off -- she should not be in your school. Therein lies the double standards. kids know emes. Educators need to be the real deal. They need to genuinely care about their students gahsmius, and ruchnius, and believe in what they say 100%. Its the double standards that are killing us!!
(6/20/2012 4:45:30 PM)
166
Long lasting makeup
I use Adwe lipstick and it lasts for two, even three days of Yom Tov. Eat carefully and don't wipe it off with napkin.

I was made up for a wedding two days ago and still have the makeup on.

Use longlasting products and don't wash and wipe it off and it will last.
(6/20/2012 5:03:26 PM)
167
to # 1, 11, 12
My makeup lasts through Shabbos. Over the years I've figured out what works for the 25 hour duration. I know I get stares in Shul and some people have walked up to me and asked me straight out if I put my makeup on Shabbos...NO, I don't! A great lipstick/gel that stays on
for very long is Maybelline Super Stay 24 color.
(6/20/2012 5:13:07 PM)
168
Teenager
Google images of rebbitzen Chaya mushka who is the definition of modest she were dark nail polish I think that why the teacher said to not choose gray areas because they are made up! Were in shulchan uruch does it say no dark nail polish
(6/20/2012 5:17:12 PM)
169
not surprising
In our schools in CH the rules and teachers are very hypocritcal. So I dont understand why the readers are expecting better. I have thousands of examples to prove this. For one I sat next to a principal and SHE was wearing nailpolish which here is being touted as "not Tznius" One of thousands of exampled. Doesnt even pay to talk about it. The old guard who does not understand our girls are not leaving their "benkel" so dont expect anything to get better.
(6/20/2012 5:34:01 PM)
170
to number 1
i just learned this. no you may not apply makeup on shabbos because it is like drawing on your face. although i, and many other lady's hate to admit it, it technically is! it is like drawing on a piece of paper and can we do that? no. some people do hold that if you put on makeup before shabbos you can add on to it. i don't get that but everyone has different opinions. their is also something called shabbos makeup, which i am not sure where you can get it. there is also something called good quality makeup:) perhaps that is what they are wearing!


on the other hand, although i think "the tznius lady" is takign a buig stand and i am in envy of her, i must say this may not be the right way of doing. i am proud that soemone is though, and i will definitly make a differnace.

-signed, a very cool girlt hat wears makeup but does not put it on shabbos and covors her knees and elbows and davens everyday and is proud of the fact:)

thanks for listening to me write. its fun to do this, write comments and write wtvr you want without letting peopel know who did it:)
(6/20/2012 5:39:05 PM)
171
to all people for dark nail polish
i think the real deal is that a lot of people say that dark nail polish attracts attention. honestly though i think the number one "no no" is knees, elbows, and collarbone. these are the things it says in shulchan aruch. but on the same side, it also says no bright colors. this must be the reason why everyone is against dark nail polish. i have no answer to number 164 but i will try to search for one.
(6/20/2012 5:43:57 PM)
172
Think
How do you think the child of the mother you're rebuking feels? That child is thinking - the school thinks my mother is inadequate. Or alternatively - how dare the school treat my parent this way. Why would that child want to stay in the system? Why would that child want to dress b'tznius if she associates it with public humiliation?
(6/20/2012 6:02:12 PM)
173
How To Keep Make-Up On For All of Shabbos and Even Yom Tov!
So everyone is always asking me how I keep my make-up on all Yom Tov long... Do I re-apply in the morning? Nowayhozay! That's totally assur!
Shabbos and Yom Tov are way more beautiful than a face of make-up! Why mess them up just to keep my make-up good?!

Instead, over some years of trial and error, and those good old days when I had time to be bored with a mirror, I've found some great ways to make the make-up last for very long. So I put together a pile of handy-dandy tricks.

Tips before we start:
Young teens: don't start wearing make-up until you NEED to. Your skin will thank you! Plus, young faces that shine without any paint, are real beauty. Of course it's also good to discuss it with your mother when you're ready.
Good make-up can cost a lot of money, and it adds up! I keep my most expensive items for Shabbos only.
Many make-up stores like giving out free make-up. My favorite is when Clinique at Macy's has free gift events. Before shopping, look up when their next event is! A bulk of my favorite items are from the free bags!
Lots of eyeshadows come with nicely illustrated instructions, I've learnt a lot from them!
Know your skin! If it's sensitive, then don't leave anything all over your face overnight. Let it breathe.
Don't expect perfection without practice... We all get better every time!
Think princess: it’s part of tznius to look like one, so do it with pride.
Do it lichvod Shabbos kodesh for an added mitzvah!


Okay, lets start:

1) Get a good primer.
My favorite is called Stay Don't Stray by Benefit. It can be found in Sephora, or at a Benefit make-up stand. It comes with instructions. If you founded a better one that works well for you, great! Spread a nice drop from your lashes and up to your brow. Make sure to blend it in well.
The primer is what will hold your eyeshadow on. It's probably the most important step here.

2) Double-line.
This step is for those of us who are trying extra hard. Put on a layer of eyeliner now. You'll be doing it again later. My experience is that pencil lasts longest. I like Mac's long lasting black. For less money, Almay has a good one too.
Make the top line right along your lashes. The closer in you get, the better. If you're brave, lift your lid and line the inner lips too. It makes a difference. The bottom line should be drawn right on your bottom lashes.
Eyeliner is what you want to stay best. Make the lines dark, but don't lose your classiness with thick.

3) Some eye-shadow tricks.
Don't use just one color. Get a pallet of 3-4 shades. I've yet to find a cheap eye-shadow that stays on well. So I go Clinique with this. Mac has good ones too, but they are usually more money, and not as skin-friendly.
Natural is beautiful, so I like pallets that blend in skin tones from white to brown. Clinique has one called Teddy Bear. I also like bronze-gold blends. Or pink-bronze. Find what's good on you.
When you put it on, remember: dab don't brush! The cheap lil sponge stick that comes with the pallet is best for this. You can blend it after. Apply the make-up with pressing dabs and it will stay. Brush nicely, and it'll fall off. This was my most vital discovery!
Important: your brow-bone! That's the part that drops into your eye-lid. Put a dark color there. That's the shadow that will stay on best, and keep your eyes popping. I like making it get darker in the outer corner, and lighter in the inner.

4) Curl your lashes!
Those blessed with super-curled lashes can kindly skip this one. The rest of us can whip out our freaky looking lash crunchers and curl them from root to tip. Don't worry about it staying, we'll get to that soon.

5) Re-line!
Yep, do step two again. Put on some nice eyeliner.

6) Long-lasting mascara technique.
First off, invest in a good water-proof mascara. My favorite by far is Clinique's long lasting black. Side bonus: it keeps your lashes curled!
During the week, stick to regular mascara, it's healthier for your lashes.
Note: if your mascara is looking clumpy, you may need to buy a new fresh one. These things go bad with time.
Okay, some awesome techniques that make it last and wonderful:
Paint both sides of your lashes. Start with the top. Don't worry, they'll curl back up even better when you get to the bottom side.
Start from the root.
Make the outer corners the darkest.
More advanced: as you pull from the root, vibrate your hand a bit. They actually make mascaras that vibrate for you. Never tried it though.
Re-dip often.
Go over the very tips when you're done, for a lengthened look.
Spend plenty time on your top lashes, and a bit less on your lower ones.
Humans make messes. When you get some on your skin - WAIT! Remove it with a Q-tip when it's dry, a minute later. Otherwise you make the mess bigger.


7) Prime your highlighter!
First use a tissue to clean up the mess of powder you dripped under your eyes. Then pick the primer back up. Put a small dot, and spread it under your eyes. Too much won't look good.
Next, get your under-eye highlighter. I'm actually very happy with one from Garnier. It's a stick with a rolling ball, and it has caffeine to wake the skin up too.
For wrinkle-prevention: rub it all in gently, then kindly pat it down.

8) Moisture stays.
If you're brave enough and need to keep something on the rest of your face all Shabbos long, try a tinted moisturizer. It's usually nicer to your skin, blends things in well, and stays on longer. I use one from Clinique, because they're usually more skin-friendly.
Extra tip: for red blotches, something companies sell nice spot cover-ups that are also medicated, and help correct the problem while hiding it.

9) Where the brush matters.
A good blush brush will make your blush last. Sephora has a nice line of them, and they last a long time too. If you're a bronzed person, the story is the sakes there too.
You might want to put a teeny bit more than usual, just so you'll have some left the next day.

10) Buy a lip stain, instead of lipstick. My favorite is from Mac and it’s called Pro Longwear. It’ll last me about 24 hours, no more.
If you have a dry lip problem, try getting a lip primer to use with regular lipstick instead.

11) Be nice!
There are a few things you can do to ruin your hard work. Let's avoid them:
Don't sleep on your face! If you sleep on your side, turn your head slightly up, so you don't smudge anything.
Don't touch. Don't rub. Keep your hands away.
No crying! You shouldn't be crying on Shabbos or Yom Tov anyway! Unless you're one of those who cry when laughing... Maybe slap your knee instead. I don't know. Just don't cry.
Remember that everyone's skin is different. Some will hold on the make-up better than others. But don't despair if it's not working. Try harder, and experiment more. You'll get there.

I might have missed some things, and you may have more good tips, so please share them! Remember, we're not being vain, we're trying our best to represent daughters of The King!
(6/20/2012 6:12:17 PM)
174
Tznius needs better PR
If it was marketed properly... it would be cool!
(6/20/2012 7:15:09 PM)
175
THIS IS A SIGN!
MOSHIACH IS COMING!!!!
(6/20/2012 7:26:12 PM)
176
to no. 74
you are sooo right. People like Mrs Lerman, with all due respect to her, she is a very nice lady do NOT market it properly. I was at one of her tznius lecture and I was not inspired at all. How can my teenager be inspired? So, bottom line.. You need the right people who know how to speak TO the girls
(6/20/2012 7:37:51 PM)
177
deal with the real underlying issue
which is the sheer meaness of The ppl in CH! the head of schools , who just want money and don't careabout anything else, the neighbors fighting, the landlords nasty, the shops rude. how many times I've held open doors and never got a thank you!! my kids bullied in school by the 'white shirters' .... all I see is a load of hypocrites and so u wanna talk tznius to me.... make this a happier place and the women will be happy to comply!!!
(6/20/2012 7:48:33 PM)
178
to #173
Great! I loved your post. I too have figured out a way to keep my makeup on for the 25 hours of Shabbos....similar to your post...you've covered all areas. I know when I'm in Shul people are trying to figure out if I put on fresh makeup, but just like you I have found a way to make it last. As you stated....trying to make your makeup last thru Shabbos may come across as being vain...it's not... I feel more put together.
(6/20/2012 7:53:31 PM)
179
They Way to do It
Let's throw rocks like in Meah Shearim!
(6/20/2012 7:54:53 PM)
180
WHO CARES WHAT OTHERS THINK!
If we don't care what others think then at least do it for what the actual outcome of immodest dress causes. YOU ARE CAUSING MEN TO TRANSGRESS. Have a little compassion and ease the struggles of others. Please the frum world is begging you!!!!
(6/20/2012 8:03:47 PM)
181
FUNNY,THEY DON'T LOOK HAPPIER
THE WOMAN AND GIRLS WHO DRESS ANYWAY THEY FEEL LIKE DON'T LOOK HAPPIER
MY DAUGHTER (AGE 10 OR 11) YEARS AGO ,MOMMY THAT WOMAN HAIR IS SHOWING(ABOUT 4IN) ,I SAID TO HER YES ,I KNOW, I TOLD HER THAT AII CAN BE SAID HAD BE SAID,DOES SHE HAVE ANY IDEAS . IT'S POSSIBLE THAT SOME WOMEN JUST HAVE NO FEELING INSIDE THERE'S LOST,YES THAT WOULD MAKE A DIFFERANCES
(6/20/2012 8:16:10 PM)
182
Shlucha: Kol hakovoid
Thank you Mrs Lerman for standing up for Yiddishkeit. When I brought my daughter to visit Crown Heights she pointed to some Ch girls and sincerely asked me if they were non-frum girls visiting. She assumed that Lubavitch girls would never dress like that.
(6/20/2012 8:37:23 PM)
183
Kol hakavod Mrs. Lerman!
(6/20/2012 8:51:34 PM)
184
again
not to be chutzpahdik or anything... but if thousands of people are reading this speech here, does that mean we don't have to hear it again at the beginning of the school year? :)
(6/20/2012 9:16:23 PM)
185
REPLY TO 177
According to your logic, if there are nasty landlords or bullies, that means you don't have to keep to halachah. Does Shabbos also fall by the wayside when you're feelings are hurt, Or is this so called logic just a good excuse for your lack of tznius.

Let's call it what it is. Dressing immodestly is giving in to temptation. It won't help after 120 to blame it on others. It didn't work for Adam Harishon. It won't work now.
(6/20/2012 9:30:02 PM)
186
Mrs Lerman Please arrange for some woman to stand on Kingston
We need a whole crew.
(6/20/2012 10:11:29 PM)
187
use some positive reenforcement!
maybe someone should stand on kingston and give out hundred dollar bills at random times to the people dressed appropriately!
(6/20/2012 10:27:53 PM)
188
Good
I think all the institutions in CH should all get together and demand that if you want your child in our institution, you need to keep to certain guidelines. Just like Bnos Menachem.
Beis Rivkah has the right to demand that if you want to enter our building you need to be dressed according to Halacha.
(6/20/2012 10:40:57 PM)
189
grey areas
The biggest issue IS the grey areas....

The more crazy the tznius rules became the worse we dressed. Thats right, we lost sight of the basics and it all just went out the window...
30 years ago, noone cared about nailpolish, or length of shaitels, or colours, or earrings, or denim/non denim...

Once you started making things like nail polish assur, then skirt length became the same as nail polish...and it all went out together!!

If you had stuck to basics, and not made things so difficult - ppl may not have rebelled so much.

Basics: Skirt length, necklines, elbows and tights. That should be the focus!

You, Beis Rivkah - are making things SO much worse. You are making Tznius a negative burdensome thing, people angry and upset and disenfranchised.

Making kindergarteners and 1st graders wear tights in summer!??!!? you wonder why by the time theyre in 7th grade, theyre wearing NOTHING on their feet at all...

Yes, we need to be better than basic halacha - but you need to choose wisely and carefully what you choose to emphasise- and pushing harder in one direction, just means a greater push in the other.
Basic Science: Every action has an equal and opposite re-action!!!

Push tznius harder and stricter, those that get fed up, will push harder the other direction...

its all just so wrong....so sad...
(6/20/2012 10:41:38 PM)
190
this lady got it all wrong
this lady is ridiculous! do you see whats going on in the world right now? all the hatred and negativity between nations and jewish ppl. this world needs acceptance, kindness and love. and what htis woman is doing is completely the opposite. if thre was more freedom to begin with these woman would not dress this way. and pardon me but i think that ppl in this chabad community dress very modestly. so how is it that from one persons perspective and reaction they see that these girls are completely covered up but then this woman is focusing on negativity that is minute.
focus on what is good. be a good person to others. accept ppl. learn how to truly love and this world will be a better place. what god wants most is love between his ppl. there is so much more besides the way pppl dress that needs to be worked on. this woman is causing hatred to occure. this is wrong. very wrong. it is wrong to make a woman feel so bad about the way she wants to look and dress.
(6/20/2012 11:04:41 PM)
191
The Olden Days
I look at pictures of my chassidishe Mother and all of her peers in the 1950's through the 1970's....skirt lengths were above knees, collars were open, sleeve a bit above elbows.. and they had the latest hairdo (shaitel) beehives etc. and followed the fashion trends. These women were very frum, yiras shomayim and raised a generation of frum chassidishe children during this era and we wore dresses above knees... look at your old school and home photos ! Of course as time went on the Frumme Velt improved the Tznius guidelines (good thing).....however, just as some posters say...people have gone beyond the Halacha and have instituted their own version of what the parameters of being Tznius is (nailpolish, sheital lengths etc.) We have to look at the approach to Tznius. How is it that my Mothers generation kept Chassidishe Homes with grace and dignity albeit the less strict guidelines of Tznius not feeling stifled in the least bit..and today we are trying to "one up" each other to see who can be more frum than the next person...even though it isn't necessarily direct Halacha. Yes, of course I know you are all going to say that we are in a different generation and we have more challenges from the big wide world that our parents didn't face when raising my generation. However, the issue still remains that we need to change our approach from the very beginning early years of childhood ...to imbue our children with love and honor that we are Bnos Yisroel and how to be dignified in our ways. No harshness...like running after girls with measuring sticks in school to see if their skirts are 8 inches below knee and if it's 7 and half inches instead of 8 ...the girl is repeatedly harrased to get it fixed immediately.....it leaves a bad taste....Focus has to be on the "ikur".
(6/20/2012 11:49:07 PM)
192
The problem today is that the girls and woman dress untznius
In the old days if they didnt mesure up it was a refined aidel not tznius dress. Nowadays the girls and woman parading on Kingston dress like the worst trash. Even the Modern Orthodox dress in a more aidel manner.
(6/21/2012 12:44:40 AM)
193
to comment 158
Lol. I think they have websites like that already.
(6/21/2012 1:44:22 AM)
194
All these men!
All these men must have no self control if they blame women so much.

It's sad, incredibly sad, that tznius, the mitzva designed (supposedly) to let us focus on our inner growth instead of our body, this mitzvah has been hijacked so as to create a culture where the body and how it's covered is ALL we look at. What's too tight? Which five year old is too alluring (???) by wearing short sleeves? Who's wearing dark nailpolish? It's the opposite of what tznius is meant to be and that's why I'm moving away from these rules.
(6/21/2012 1:47:52 AM)
195
listen closly....
i am a 15 year old girl. ive been thru the tznius hardships. i have been talk to since i was in seventh grade about my approach. i have been told so many time to close my button of my uniform shirt/ to throw out my ankle socks/ to go home from school and change my skirt/ to take off my long earings ect. i will just make it clear that no matter how many times my pinciple confrounted me about my tznius, nothing changed. just made it worse.
my point is i have come to realize ON MY OWN, that tznuis is a very important part of the Torah that has to be kept. i am making an effort to do better day by day. the point is not to talk to all the teenagers about the way they dress. NO! it wil turn them off! it will make them rebel!
for example; the other day i was walking down the street, when a lovly 19-21 year old girl approaches me. she told me to be careul about my long skirt which had a 3 inch slit. she said "i wouldnt be surprised if they kick you out of school." I WENT HOME. i was depressed. i was sick of hearing it from other hippacrits that are not perfect! so let them come to realize it on their own.... i don't know what to say. just dont shove it down their throats. i am saying this from experience. true we can't IGNORE it but we have to get this done in a nice matter. i hope things will change.
(6/21/2012 3:53:56 AM)
196
a great conversation
I'm happy to hear so many voices and honest opinions about a subject that matters. Tznius is a very personal issue, whereas I agree that many women walking on Kingston Ave. sadly look innapropiate from many standpoints. I think this comes mainly from ignorance, sometimes because they grew up feeling oppressed by this issue and now find themselves free to express their individuality. When you don't respect a young person's need to individualize, you silence their questions, plus you do not give them a good secular education to be able to cope intelligently with what's going on out there..this is the result, sadly, a tznius lady is not the answer, we need some creative answers, let's start by allowing the kids to speak, and listen carefully...PS in the area of proper expression (I gather this is whats behind all this) Crown Heights has a lot of work to .
(6/21/2012 8:09:58 AM)
197
Hindy Lewis
I just read this article & the accompanying comments.

Regardless of my opinions about the level (or lack of) of Tznius in Crown Heights, this needs to be said: Mrs. Lerman is one of my "heroes". This is a thankless task, but she does it with as much sensitivity and kindness as possible. I have never, ever heard either with my own ears, or via my daughters, that she raises her voice, is sarcastic or judgmental, or cruel.

We have a serious problem in Crown Heights. I was in Williamsburg yesterday: despite the excessive heat, every woman & girl I saw was wearing stockings (thick ones!) full sleeves, blouses and tops closed to the neck, nothing was see-through, and married women were wearing full head coverings according to their shi'ita. We aren't like that. Bare legs, flip-flops, tiny sleeves (if any), short skirts...summer in Crown Heights is a nightmare. Last summer, I saw a young girl I know wearing the shortest shorts I have ever seen, along with a sleeveless top that looked like a scoop neck undershirt. I have also seen young men in shorts and flip-flops, no tzitzis. So we can't just point the finger at women & girls.

I am very upset and personally offended by some of these comments. If you choose to dismiss Mrs. Lerman's views (which are Halacha-based...she doesn't make them up!) , I guess that's your right. But to post them here and belittle the meseiros nefesh of a woman who is not doing this for accolades (as is quite clear) but because she wants us to dress & behave as a Bas Yisrael should, is just wrong.

We all have our nisyonus...do you think I feel like going outside with stockings, full sleeves & a sheitel in 95* weather? Do you think my daughters enjoy making THEIR daughters wear full sleeves, long skirts & full socks/tights/stockings when it's so hot? But we have to do it.

This is thing. Bais Rivka girls and their parents represent the Rebbe. Would anyone have dared gone to the Rebbe dressed like they feel they can today in the Rebbe's daled amos? When you go into Bais Rivka you are entering the Rebbe's Mosod. Dress accordingly. Show respect to the standards of the school where you CHOOSE to send your daughters.

I wish you all a safe & enjoyable summer.
(6/21/2012 8:13:26 AM)
198
In the news...cover up
Recently there was a review of skin cancer in the news, which stated that there has been much increased incidence rl of melanoma. The directive...COVER UP.

That is not the reason for Tzniyus but a benefit. So, be wise and stay cool. Yes, tzniyus like all mitzvos have benefits that
go far beyond what we see with our eyes. They are the rewards for doing it FOR G-D ALONE. Remember Hashem gave Adam and Chava their clothing.

JUST DO IT.
(6/21/2012 8:24:23 AM)
199
agree with 177
yes this is a unhappy place, and yes this is the way the women are fighting to be heard! so don't put tzinus ladies at the doors... put kind ladies there, just to say hi, how are u, is everything ok? can I help?!! mark my words this will end this 'crises' !!!
(6/21/2012 8:58:40 AM)
200
mrs. lerman doesnt embarrass
Mrs. Lerman does not embarrass anyone. Is a doorman who asks you not to smoke in the building embarrasing you? It is just not acceptable
(6/21/2012 9:36:26 AM)
201
for # 1 in reference to makeup
Revlon colorstay makeup (eyeliner,lipstick,foundation) lasts a full Shabbos. I am a woman in my 50's and put it on before Shabbos and it last beautifully. As far as the tzniyus problem the ladies need to wake up; you are jeopardizing your children and husband .And btw do you like the non jewish men looking at your body up and down as you walk by? maybe you do. I saw a perfect example of this the other day as the men spoke in spanish all about the young married ladie's shapely body and it was vulgar
(6/21/2012 9:48:23 AM)
202
So sad!!
This is the best recipe for keeping conflicts growing....for letting hate ruining relationships between brothers,neighbors etc,etc...( But maybe, should you live in Israel in order to understand better such an expanding phenomenon?)This tactic definitely belongs to Meah Shearim and not to Crown heights where i have learned to appreciate Habbads' people, especially for their tolerance to the other, no matter how different he is....Where the most important is to love and to welcome everyone with the hope that they will feel that comfortable and happy around them that they would want to adopt their" lifestyle" (as she recalls it in this article...) and if not...well, their door is always opened for you!!! To me, THIS is being a Jew!!! THIS is THE TZNIUS behavior to have!!!!
(6/21/2012 11:13:23 AM)
203
How about a health lady!!
why isn't there someone at the door to "rebuke" the woman that are overweight? why doesn't anyone yell at the 300 pound person eating ice cream on kingston ave? aren't they not taking care of the body that hashem gave them? in fact aren't they harming they're body? wont this lead to illness and even death? it seems a lot more serious to me than embarrassing someone that you know nothing about. now i'm sure that you have all kinds of reasons why someone might be fat like childbirth, thyroid problem etc. etc. and that's probably why you wouldn't do it.
so why do you feel that its ok to "rebuke" someone and possibly embarrass them IN PUBLIC without knowing why they dress the way they do?
have you walked a mile in their shoes? do you know what they are going through or have gone through in their life?
does their husband abuse them? were they molested? do they come from a broken home? did her/ his father beat or abuse them? are they a ba'al teshuva and this is the most frum they have ever been and now by yelling or embarrassing them you have set them back 10 years?
maybe we should "send" more shluchim to crown heights to help bring people closer to yidishkeit without ebarrassing them.
now, i'm sure you'll say that we have shlucim here right? well MAYBE we need more.

or we could always just throw these kids whose parent don't dress properly OUT.... it seems to have worked till now.
(6/21/2012 11:18:34 AM)
204
a friend of Chabad
I study çńéăĺú çá''ă with a Lubavitcher friend of mine. You have the best ńôřéí but I would be scared to move my kids across to a Lubavitch school, especially the ones for girls. Don't you realize that ôřĺîň ĺĺňěč would be absolutelly shocked if they would see how some boys and girls dress in Crown Heights. it's a real problem :(
(6/21/2012 11:32:28 AM)
205
Chabad mont pnimius
Chabad lite do not like t be told off. They would rather live in a bubble. Thank you Mrs Lerman.
(6/21/2012 11:36:38 AM)
206
To #203
BRAVO!!! BRAVO!!!
(6/21/2012 11:38:55 AM)
207
To #203
Seriously?? I'm a huge believer in Dan Lekaf Zechus but I'm sure there is no way to give these women at BR benefit of the doubt. They KNOW they are dressed inappropriately, even if they are bringing someone else's child. And I'm sure Mrs. Lerman can tell who is a parent in CH or a visitor who may not know the halochos (a non frum relative for example). I have non frum relatives but they aren't ignorant. In respect for our community, my jeans-wearing cousin only wore skirts when she was here a few months ago!!
Mrs. Lerman was my teacher 15 or so years ago & continues to be one of my most favorite. Kol Hakovod to you!!
(6/21/2012 2:23:27 PM)
208
To 11 and 12
There is makeup which is muttar on Shabbos.
(6/21/2012 2:29:09 PM)
209
The truth about Chabad is exposed.
There is a huge difference between the way Chabad treats other Jews, and the way they treat their own. I have found that within Crown Heights and the Lubavitch community in general, the non-judgemental and 'warm acceptance of all Jews' attitude (which Chabad is reknowned for) is completely lacking. As a member of the younger generation, I can say that none of us chose to be born into Chabad families... We were though, and the younger generation needs to be given a chance to 'experiment' with different hashkafos and find the level of frumkeit that they are comfortable with. Why can't Bais Rivka just 'live and let live'? Give these yungeleit the opportunity to find their own genuine connections to yiddishkeit-- don't push it down their throats.
(6/21/2012 2:50:01 PM)
210
bravo 191
yeh what about that??!! tue all the pics from the 60's and 70 's are below the knee skirts , over the elbow.... yes Lubavitch born ffb women!!! Chek out the London Lubavitch book called roots u will see for urself!!
(6/21/2012 4:42:36 PM)
211
VERY unlubavitch
i think this is completely the wrong way to go about it its a major turn off wow im shocked people would think that it will help if women do come to the school dressed more tzniusdick it will be because they dont want to be yelled at by someone standing at the door ready to pounce
(6/21/2012 6:09:28 PM)
212
#41
you are 100% correct!!!
(6/21/2012 6:27:39 PM)
213
Life's not easy
People go through a lot just to get through a day
And a night. And families with Boruch Hashem
Lots of expenses fork over what they can possibly
Afford to pay for parochial school. Day by day decade
By decade people break their backs to afford
A Chasidesha education for their kids . They pray
That they and their children will be treated with
The dignity they have earned. And since Gimel Tammuz-well if
You are like me you are still Hurt. What greater hurt
Could have been. So we are so to speak a shearis
Hapelata. So no more pirud. No more cruel.
No more judgement . Just goodness and kindness.
The Freirdeke Rebbe Said do someone a favor
In Gashmius and after that do them a favor in ruchnius.

So, is there also a good morning layer with no
Purpose for standing at the door other than to give hugs to
The kids that want them and warm smiles to all of them and all of their mothers?


I'm generations past school age , but that seems
Like a great start for a day at school and might create
A lasting warm association for at least for a few.
Have 9 good morning ladies for every tzniyus lady.

Shaming is deadly-- even where there is no such attention.
The definition of shaming is saying or doing something
That could lead even an over sensitive person to
Feel ashamed. And pretty much everybody is over sensitive
Once in a while.

Please cut some slack to all of these salt of the earth hard working families . Life's tough enough.
Chasidim and their kids.
(6/21/2012 8:52:14 PM)
214
To # 1 and interesting Rashi
Re Makeup on Shabbos, see link below

Also, I noticed an interesting Rashi on Sotah 2a D.H. Mezavgin which seems to define a righteous woman as a tzenuah and wicked woman as a perutzah.

http://www.yeshivahcollege.com/Yeshivah_College___hmkllh_hysybh/PARSHA/Entries/2012/5/4_Cosmetics_on_Shabbat.html
(6/21/2012 10:09:42 PM)
215
to 199
I beg to differ!!
(6/21/2012 10:16:05 PM)
216
210 short skirts in the 60's
it was a problem, and a lot of rabbonim from all segments of yiddishkeit, litvish, chassidish, etc came out with a letter saying skirts have to cover the knees even when sitting.

(6/21/2012 11:01:06 PM)
217
agree
i agree with Mea Shearim not Lubavitch !!
(6/21/2012 11:18:58 PM)
218
agree
same person as before. i also like:
Enjoy yourself.

It's cute that you think anyone cares what you think welcome to 2012.
(6/21/2012 11:24:13 PM)
219
listen closely
all you women/men are ridiculous. fighting like little children. it doesnt matter who is wrong or right. all those who are praising the article you know your right, you don't need to write it because everyone also knows your right. and all those who are saying welcome to 2012 or its for mea shearim.. first of all you know yourself that your wrong and that's why your defending yourselves. the truth doesn't need to be defended-it speaks for itself. also you are making fools of yourselves because evryone reading it knows you arent sure of your life and need some guidance. and whoever agrees with those comments, you can comment on and tear apart this comment but know that that doesnt change anything. instead, stop for a moment after reading and think, are you right. if you think you are then there is no need to publicize another rude comment. and all the people who are going to say something rude, just know, you might "win" here by exclaiming how it belongs back in the 1600's but guess what inside your losing. you dont even realize how far you fell. whoever does comment bad, i guess you dont undersatnd the meaning of maturity, constructive criticism and that humans can make mistakes and its not below your dignity to admit you might need improvment.
(6/22/2012 12:37:27 AM)
220
Is silence an option?
See Shabbos 119b that Yerushalayim was destroyed because the people did not rebuke one another. They rather acted like sheep who stand beside each other, minding their own business.
(6/22/2012 12:47:28 AM)
221
to number 217 and all the others like it
so why dont you start not keeping cholov yisrael and tell your husband to shave and stop wearing yamulke and tzitzis and your kids cna watch tv and let them read whatever they want-"because its not lubavitch"
(6/22/2012 12:54:56 AM)
222
NO SELF ESTEEM!!!
I think these girls have an extremely low self esteem. Maybe the schools can get some sort of doctor to help them in general and maybe that way they will feel better about themselves and not resort to such a way of dressing.

Just a thought to contemplate!
(6/22/2012 3:35:36 AM)
223
To number 222
Or Maybe.... it's the OPPOSITE!! The women who are extremely tznius have no self esteem and therefore only feel comfortable when every part of their bodies are covered!! You KNOW its true!
(6/22/2012 7:47:50 AM)
224
The problem lies with #219
"Also you are making fools of yourselves because evryone reading it knows you arent sure of your life and need some guidance." What's wrong with needing some guidance?? Don't you realize that all of the Chabad Lite crowd just simply needs guidance? They have to find their own place within yiddishkeit! Stop forcing them to be followers-- and bashing them for "not being sure of their life"-- we should support them for going beyond the status quo and attempting to find their own connections to Hashem! Why don't we change our outlooks, and treat them like we would any other yidden- give them a chance!
(6/22/2012 8:53:14 AM)
225
Agree with #209 and #224
I completely agree with #224, and with #209 as well. Chabad is extremely judgmental towards its own, which is the reason I decided to lead a not-chabad lifestyle anymore. They are very warm to the people who need to be me'kareved, but are extremely judgmental and closed-minded to people who grew up Lubavitch. If only they knew how many people they were pushing away with every rude comment and glaring stare.....
(6/22/2012 9:32:01 AM)
226
Tally
Could someone tally up the results. How many pro and how many against?
(6/22/2012 11:51:52 AM)
227
to 223
Your words are untrue. Ask any frum reliable psycologist.
Have a good Shabbos!
(6/22/2012 1:50:41 PM)
228
wow wow wow
i am simply laughing in front of my computer. you know why,
because all you chassidish women- are going on and on. well guess what... i am not even married. i grew up in a good chassidish home and i think its sad that anyone thinks it could change. just accept it that not everyone is the same level. just accept that yes "jewish frum
lubavitch women and girls wont be dressed the same as you. leave the reckoning and judging up to hashem. if thats their lifestyle just accept. first look at yourself, do you speak loshon hara, do you respect everyone. do you do evrything the torah commands us. i think everyone reading this cant say no to loshon hara so fist fix yourselves then others. just look at it as, you have a problem in loshon hara, they have a problem in tznius.
(6/22/2012 2:41:48 PM)
229
to 227
I asked a family member- a 'frum reliable psychologist"- (please note the correct spelling) and they agreed with me. That being said, I think that both extremes indicate a lack of self-esteem; those who dress provocatively (mini skirts, tight tops, very low necklines) are anxiously awaiting the nods of other men. On the other hand, those who meticulously cover up their bodies are most certainly uncomfortable with their bodies. When an overweight CH mother wears baggy clothing, she may call herself 'uber-chassidish' for her high level of tznius, but in reality she wishes she could be more comfortable wearing form-fitting clothing.
Needless to say, I find that the young women of Crown Heights do not dress provocatively- they may not be wearing tights-- but they are certainly not trying to get the attention of other men. They are trying to look their best for their husbands! There is no shame in that!
(6/22/2012 2:48:58 PM)
230
MAYBE START WITH YOUR OWN TEACHERS..
Dear Mrs. Lerman,
How about starting with the Crown Heights teachers? Did you see how some of them dress? is Tznius only a way of "fooling" the kids in school and a "uniform" to get a paycheck?! Why are there some that are big Mechaneches walking down the street in a tichel? Many of them are lacking Tznius, in and out of school..
I wonder why in over 200 comments it was not mentioned.. I'm I seeing wrong or I'm I too honest..?
(6/24/2012 3:05:30 AM)
231
#228
no loshon hora for something that is already public. in this case, the person walking arround without tznius is publicizing it herself!
(6/24/2012 3:10:16 AM)
232
to 229
Covering up totally does not have to mean a woman has a low self image. It could simply mean she wants to follow the halacha precisely and doesn't want to be attracting.
(6/24/2012 3:11:53 AM)
233
A thought provoking discussion
After reading the article and comments, clearly tznius, along with the serious problem of abuse predators and those that cover-up their crimes, seem to me to be the two central challenges of our time.

As a BT who lived the fast track of pop culture for many years, I chose the beauty and values of Yiddishkeit and was drawn to the dignity of modesty. Please read my essay in Haaretz on the subject (see link below).

I teach the beauty of tznius all the time to young women and I believe I have a fresh contempory perspective.

There is a deeper problem, however, that several comments have touched upon-- Jewish girls need inspiration. They need incentives, life choices and ambitions that they can aspire to. When you aren't excited about what the future holds and what achievements you can accomplish in your life, you resort to cheap thrills and feelings of aliveness that the media offers-- which of course is only a manipulation to get you out there spending money shopping.

Jewish girls are talented and brilliant and sadly underdeveloped and underutilzed. Let's give them alternatives, choices, exciting futures. Then maybe, just maybe, they wont feel their only avenues of expression are through fashion trends and the empty allure of popular culture

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/can-ultra-orthodox-culture-go-overboard-in-its-quest-for-modesty-1.408262
(6/24/2012 3:38:15 AM)
234
Mixed feelings...
Although this does not seem like a very Lubavitch thing to do, the tsnius problem within Chabad and specifically within Crown Heights is absolutely out of control. I do agree that there are certain ways of inspiring people without shoving tsnius down thier throats but it has gotten to the point where these girls do no realize what they are doing. I do not agree with lecturing people on the streets but as far as a school goes, rules are rules. If you do not like the rules of a particular school then do not send your children there.
(6/24/2012 7:41:13 PM)
235
To 222
I think this is coming from ur low self esteem!
(6/24/2012 8:53:01 PM)
236
to 229
there is a serious problem if you dont think women are dressing provocatively- we have been desensitized so much! a woman who doesnt folllow the rules in an attempt to please her husband is insecure in their bond that she needs to resort to this. if she were confident in their love she wouldnt have to resort to overexposure. in fact overexposure detracts tremendously and totally cheapens and weakens the relationship-since shes flaunting her body to the world- disregarding whats supposed to be 'just between them'. so actuaaly one who is meticulou in covering herself- is doing so to strengthen her marriage and cuz she realizes the beauty in it.
if you fail to, please work on it instead of trying to find fault in those better than you. and remember- G-d defined modesty- its not up to our individual opinion!
(6/24/2012 9:56:49 PM)
237
Wow 223
Wow 223!
(6/24/2012 10:07:26 PM)
238
kol hacavod
u r a gooid tznius lady. may all tznius ladies be like you!
(6/24/2012 11:37:35 PM)
239
Your Not getting the point...
After reading most of these comments... No I'm genna ask why do you think she is telling all the girls to be Tznius? Is it because its against Halacha or rebuking no.no.no. Cause when you see Lubavitch/ religious /Jewish not Tznius what is the first thing that comes to your mind? Shes fried out shes disgusting she might have problems at home... then you remember oh maybe Dan Likaf Zechus but your still staring at her etc. So now Mrs. Lerman is trying to erase the fact that no one should think this girl is horrible or not friendly.... Cause it happened to me once i was wearing a short skirt well not so short and i got like a few stares like uhhh your not Tznius... and I never wore a such a short skirt again cause you know how awkward it is.. but of course the non Tznius girl is thinking yes this is what i want everyone to look at me... but they have no/some idea that they are getting looks in a bad way.. just wanted to clear it out and that's one of the many reasons why Mrs. Lerman is doing this!
(6/25/2012 1:16:43 AM)
240
Sad but necessary
How sad that there's a need for Mrs Lerman to need to do this.
My daughter attends a Bais Yaakov & there are no tznius issues.
Does anyone want to know why? The girls are taught what a privilege it is to be a Bas Yisroel, how beautiful it is & how precious things are concealed. The girls are PROUD to be tznius. To be sure they learn Halachos too but those are secondary to the message of beauty & self respect.
How sad that with all the beautiful Chassidus available to us Chabad women & girls do not have the basic pride & self respect of a Bais Yaakov girl.
(6/25/2012 5:58:52 AM)
241
I LOVE LUBAVITCH!
This whole farbrengen about the issue was amazing! Lubavitch rocks my world! Its so beautiful to see how passionate people are! One about Halalcha, another about Ahavas Yisrael and Sensitivity! I found this video- The Rebbe DOES say something, but with tact- its a very difficult thing to achieve but maybe some Lubavitchers are modern in their ideas and uphold western, democratic values which are not Torah values... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3z1QMvDfdAQ
I think Hashem gets nachas from open online discussions like these! (call me wierd but thats what I think)
(6/25/2012 7:24:05 AM)
242
to # 240
i am sorry but you can't make such a general comment. not all the bais yaakov girls are like you describe(i personally know some girls), and not all of the chabad girls need a "tznius lady". I am 16 , i go to a chabad school, and i am actually proud to be tznius, as many other girls that maybe you don't know
(6/25/2012 9:51:33 AM)
243
The right person for the job
Mrs. Lerman was my daughter's teacher, and a more fine, respectful person you will not find. She is a great teacher, who cares for and inspires her students. All this talk about show them love, not criticism - well that's exactly the type of teacher Mrs. Lerman is, and that's why she IS the person for this very necessary job.

I can't believe the defensive comments people are posting without even knowing her!
(6/25/2012 9:53:05 AM)
244
"very long sheitlach and dark nail polish"
Mrs. Lerman, I am sure you mean well, but when you blur the line between halacha and your personal determination of what is tznius and what is not, well, then you lose all credibility. Equating skirts that a mid thigh length to very long sheitlach is asinine, comparing plunging necklines to dark nail polish is ridiculous. Stick to shulchan aruch and halacha, and not modern recent chumras, and you may actually find people listen.
(6/25/2012 11:30:44 AM)
245
I agree
that dark red & dark black nailpolish is NOT tznius.........& if a teacher doesnt realize that well then they shouldnt be teaching our treasures
(6/25/2012 6:33:35 PM)
246
this is crazy
its not her job to tell people what to wear. its thier choice in life and by telling them off youre gonna make them do it more. mrs lerman might be the sweetist lady in the world but she has no right to do this. i might have considered going to bais rivka for high school but now im definitely not. these people know what they are doing and people being judgemental and telling them off are going to make them do it more. i know this from personal experience
(6/25/2012 8:13:45 PM)
(6/25/2012 10:20:09 PM)
248
to #223
NOT true! i am extremely tsnius and i hav high self esteem!
(6/25/2012 10:31:39 PM)
249
#91
Mrs.Lerman IS Boruch Hashem a living example of tznius and
and is 100% right to express her concern for the honor
of Lubavitch. She is doing what should have long ago been done. How does anyone have the Chuzpah to refute what is
part of our TORAH?
(6/25/2012 11:30:09 PM)
250
kol kakavod
looking forward to more years of tznius, feeling good and right about that committment, and feeling like I can look nice and fulfill my connection to Torah. thanks.
ps. there might be a large crowd who are conflicted about the tznius issue, but have no fear, it may be a strained topic, but the Torah is the Torah and tznius will always be an inyon waiting for more women to fulfill it.
stay positive, stay tznius!! AD MOSSAI ! ;-)
(6/25/2012 11:33:39 PM)
251
to 246
i totally agree with you
(6/26/2012 11:33:43 AM)
252
These rules can no longer apply today.
As a woman, I feel that the purpose of tznius is to represent myself as a bas melech. Therefore, in my work as a hard-working mother, wife, and physician, I try to dress with dignity and style, as a princess indeed would dress. I don't wear tights and at times I will wear dark nail-polish-- but I feel like a bas melech at all times. Fashion has evolved- and the Torah surely does not demand of us to dress like women of the 19th century!
(6/26/2012 1:31:08 PM)
253
#252 CHAS VESHALOM!
when dark nail polish became 'fashion', did the queen of england start wearing it? of course not! 'because its in fashion' is NOT a reason to EVER conform to such disgusting, goyish society!!....mamesh a disgrace
(6/27/2012 8:20:37 PM)
254
Does it really make a difference?
Will Hashem judge you for wearing dark red nail polish rather than bright pink nail polish? Will He judge you for having your shirt one button open? Stop making a cult out of Judaism! And btw, #253, get off of the internet if you don't want to be influenced by such a disgusting, goyish society!
(6/28/2012 7:20:13 PM)
255
tsnuit??
ok firstly, i kind of agree with the need to display more modesty in our clothing nowadays...... many teachers have spoken to me before about my jeans skirts etc..... HOWEVER.... i look around me at what my 'role models' are supposed to be in the world... and i see either two things..... 'very frum' women with extremely tight fitting provocative black tops.....tight skirts and sky high heels.... or women dressed shabbily and who look slightly ridiculous.. its hard for me to dress in a ridiculous manner as i dont want to look that odd. and arent tight fitting clothes not tzniut anyways????? secondly, im quite sure sara imenu didnt wear tights, so as long as i cover my knees properly why should i??
(7/1/2012 9:16:11 AM)
256
whew!
Can #104 write the rebuttal - a more enlightened response to our community issues?
(7/4/2012 12:57:57 AM)
257
Let's leave the judging up to the Aibishter
I would argue that it's more of a sin to sit in judgement of others than it is to wear "dark nailpolish".
(7/5/2012 8:53:15 PM)
258
You may be a doctor but halacha...
To #252 you may feel refined like a bas melech etc., but in my opinion that was a very unrefined and unprincess-like thing to say. "I don't wear tights/cover my legs Hashem doesn't expect us to dress like the 19th century." When was the last time He spoke to you? Leave the paskening to the Rabbonim please... and to #255 are you suggesting that you are following Sara Immeinu's example in not wearing tights??? Is there something here i'm not getting?
(7/8/2012 2:20:35 AM)
259
The road is paved with good intentions
While women who give this rebuke to other women may have the best of intentions, the message received is often not one of love. The girls on the receiving end of these rebukes are often highly hurt by them, especially when the rebuke is given in regard to something that is a not so black and white. I think the women covering their knees, elbows, and collarbones in 100 degree weather should be given credit rather than rebuked because they aren't wearing stockings or something that is actually a chumra.
(7/8/2012 6:14:54 AM)
260
Education
While this women's intentions seem to be pure, I think the method will only drive people away. As for stockings and color of nail polish those are chumrot some people/communities choose to take on, NOT halacha, and people should be educated enough to know the difference between halacha and chumrot. Personally I think the girl in sandals who is makpid on the length of her skirt is more tznius than the many girls who are makpid to wear sandals but wear skirts that show everything the moment they sit. And she is being makpid on halacha, while choosing not to take on the chumra of covering her feet, while the other girl is being makpid on a chumra and not following halacha.
(7/9/2012 12:58:01 PM)
261
Not
What's beautiful about being tznius? It's oppressive.
(7/9/2012 1:36:52 PM)
262
Education
While this women's intentions seem to be pure, I think the method will only drive people away. As for stockings and color of nail polish those are chumrot some people/communities choose to take on, NOT halacha, and people should be educated enough to know the difference between halacha and chumrot. Personally I think the girl in sandals who is makpid on the length of her skirt is more tznius than the many girls who are makpid to wear sandals but wear skirts that show everything the moment they sit. And she is being makpid on halacha, while choosing not to take on the chumra of covering her feet, while the other girl is being makpid on a chumra and not following halacha.
(7/9/2012 1:37:05 PM)
263
Effective Long-Term?
What feelings will a rebuked girl/woman be left with that propels her to dress modestly in the future? This is a quick and short-lived fix. It can only be maintained in controlled settings. Given that, I do not even need to address whether this method is Torah-dic.
I would like to address the commenter who compared it to the embarrassing Sotah ritual--you cannot extrapolate from that and say it is permissible to embarrass someone in all situations where they violate halacha. There is a halacha not to embarrass and it is not stated that there is an exception when it comes to breaching other halachot. Sotah may very well be the only exception.
(7/9/2012 2:03:46 PM)
264
I respectfully disagree
i have to say I am disappointed by the argument presented here. As a strictly observant teacher at an Orthodox school, I have encountered far worse problems than matters of dress. I have seen students dressed "appropriately" (because the definition of "appropriate" here is incredibly subjective--I would posit it is one that borders on harassment, if a teacher is doing the commenting--and this is not in accordance with the law). These students exhibit racist believes, and often an entire absence of empathy for those not exactly like themselves. The laws you feel they must adhere to are superficial in nature, and in students' quests--the students to whom I refer; not all of them--to meet these superficial standards, have lost sight of the most basic matters of human decency. And isn't teetering one's self the driving force of the religion? Is it not the most often cited reason for the diaspora?

The Halacha, as presented here, has been perverted to become a vehicle for harsh judgment that leads, often, to severe shame on the part on the recipient of the rebuke, not a dramatic change in dress. The incidence of eating disorders in this community, then, is perhaps not incidental. The notion of respecting one's body has been transmuted into a hatred of the body.

(7/10/2012 9:49:59 AM)
265
I find your viewpoint disturbing
And I agree with #264
"The Halacha, as presented here, has been perverted to become a vehicle for harsh judgment that leads, often, to severe shame on the part on the recipient of the rebuke, not a dramatic change in dress."

Maybe learn the halachos of giving proper mussar and the halachos of embarrassing people before continuing what you are doing.
(7/11/2012 11:53:40 AM)
266
Come to the Museum
Every single day there are women who come to our community and have absolutely no respect for us. Many of them are dressed in short sleeves and short pants etc.
If you go to the JCM for even one day you will find dozens of people dressed that way and many of them are Jewish.
Dear Tznius Lady, please come to the Museum there is lots of work to be done. Tell them they can't come in until they are dressed properly.
(7/11/2012 10:30:51 PM)
267
Tznius curriculum
Someone above mentioned creating a tznius curriculum. I think this is a fabulous idea. I did not go to a Chabad seminary, but we had a mandatory class called hardens leches, wherein we learned all the sources of tznius with different commentaries. This could easily be created and adapted to a Chasidish/ Chabad perspective, and ideally taught to high school girls. I believe this would be a very respectful practical way to address the issue.
(7/12/2012 4:36:51 PM)
268
Embarrassing People Is Not Ahavas Yisroel
When you follow every single detail of the Shulchan Aruch to perfection, then you can criticize people.
It is the Chabad way and the Torah way for Ahavas Yisroel to always be exercised. Have you learned nothing from the teachings of the Rebbe and Frierdiker Rebbe?
(7/17/2012 2:04:54 PM)
269
Tznius can be fun and exciting!!!!!
Here are some ideas to make tznius appealing:
1) Give discount cards to students that can be used in a local store which sells tznius clothing. (The owner can ask his posek if he can deduct this as maaser) .
2) Hold a tznius mivtza in school. Girls have to research, illustrate and create a board on ONE aspect of tznius. (Tznius also relates to behaving with refinement and dignity both within and without the home. Then hold a tznius fair for girls and their mothers with plenty of prizes and accolades for every serious entry!
3) Have the high school girls take the fashion of the day and Tzniustize it. (my own word) Give them the tznius guidelines and have them make Before and After Makeovers of the garments. Can be done using a digital camera, or the afters can be modeled in a fashion show with the before garment on the screen. This takes a lot of creativity but that's just the outlet that many girls need. Of course this only comes AFTER the students have really learned hilchot tznius. During the process, ask the girls to keep a journal about how they feel about it. (A teacher did this and was very pleased with the students' maturity).
Lastly-tznius around the world and throughout the ages....Every student chooses a country or an era and researches how Jewish women dressed or currently dress there. BTW-include Meah Shearim. Why and how did these garments, styles, makeup, become the distinct Jewish fashions. Information is available in Jewish museums, libraries, and of course, online....Think, Tunis, Morocco, Ethiopia, Russia, Israel during the Tanach vs. current times, etc....With a ruach of fun, education and kedusha this project can be a super success. Get the bracha of a local well respected posek before doing any of this, so that all of the projects and guidelines can be under the auspices of a halachic authority. Tzippy
(7/19/2012 1:31:33 PM)
270
This may not be the right job
But don't undermine that Tznius is Everyones"s business. It affects everyone that sees it. It encourages those who don't have the courage, It affects young bochrim, it gives lubavitch a bad name and most of all affects the non tznius person and her kids and husband.!!!!!!!!
(7/20/2012 12:03:27 AM)
271
from a teacher
I am not Lubavitch myself, but I taught in Bais Rivkah and I was shocked every time I saw a teacher or parent dressed inappropriately. I knew that when I took the job, I had to dress and act a certain way, and I was always careful not to set a bad example for the girls. But I also saw how so many girls were confused about tznius, because they learned one thing at school but saw different things at home and on the streets - or even, chalilah, from their own teachers! And while yes, most teachers were baruch Hashem very careful about tznius...not all of them were. Maybe things have changed since I was there; I don't know. But I know that children are not stupid, and they see the contradictions and hypocrisies in front of their faces. And if parents and educators want their daughters and students to dress and behave in a certain way, they too must act the part.
(7/20/2012 10:58:07 AM)
272
from an ordinary Jew
I'm getting tired of "wardrobe Judaism". There are so many more urgent problems confronting the Jews and the world in general...and overdosing on skirt lengths and nail polish won't help solve any of them!!
(7/22/2012 3:05:41 PM)
273
kweansmom
To Commenter #266 who wants the Tznius Lady to stand at the entrance of the Jewish Children's Museum:
I don't think you understand what the goals of the museum are .
This is from the Mission Statement of the JCM:
"The Museum is a setting for children of all faiths and backgrounds to gain a positive perspective and awareness of the Jewish heritage, fostering tolerance and understanding."
Having a Tznius Lady turning away people at the door would undermine the purpose of the museum on many levels. It would also discourage museum attendance, probably to the point where the museum would cease to exist!
(7/22/2012 6:36:57 PM)
274
Agreed and disagreed
While it is imprortant for the teachers, students and parents to be dressed in accordance with Halacha. Is it really right to correct someone who is doing something that your own minhagim deem inappropriate. dark nail polish, and a long sheitel aren;t the worst things in the world. Where as if the same person came into the building with a low cut blouse, or a skirt above the knee then by all means. If its something that is strictly against the schools regulations then by all means. But anything beyond the bottom line tzniut (inc minhagim of the location/school) I think disgrestion needs to be used. As a balei teshuvah, and having gone to BT seminary, i've seen ALOT of girls getting offended because someone commented that they were wearing their hair down, or their weren't wearing thick enough tights. While saying something might be nessicary, it could and should be done in a way where someone will NOT be offended or embaressed. Privatly, or as a suggestion rather then a MUST.

Again, definatly an important and needed posistion, but not to the point where it will offend others. I'd recomend asking a Rav how to best approach certain senarios.

KOL HAKOVOD AND HATZLACHA.
(7/23/2012 2:47:54 PM)
275
From a non- lubavitcher
The best way to create the change you are looking for in your community is to make tznius, the "new cool." girls shouldn't have to feel like martyrs when they dress tzniusly- the should feel great! I think that the best way to do this is to make sure they have role models who look good and fashionable but are tznius at the same time. Lets face it, girls want to "look good" and tznius doesnt mean you have to look dowdy, frumpy or nerdy. If girls see that the only peple in the comminity who are tznius are the "rebbetzins" who dont look " good" then it will be too hatd for them to embrace it. In my schools and community, being tznius is " cool" and I feel better about the way I look when Im tznius rather than when I try to push the limit. Try to bring that positive peer pressure into your schools and community. I will admit that the reputation chanad women have is that they are not exactly the prototype of tznius. I think its a shame bc your community is so beautiful in many other ways...
(7/26/2012 3:38:04 PM)
276
Tznius is in.....
I too am part of the club c'mon ladies, girls we need more role models, ones that look fashionable and put together yet do not compromise on tznius,wether sitting standing or bending and not the fuddy , duddy types and maybe we will have more people on board. Wonderful article. lets go.
(8/6/2012 10:08:30 PM)
277
277
Kol Ha'kavod! We need more people like you!
(8/12/2012 11:40:36 PM)
278
MRS D
MRS. LERMAN
I APPLAUD YOUR COURAGE IN WHAT YOU ARE DOING.
PLEASE DO NOT HEED THE NEGATIVE COMMENTS. JUST CONTINUE AND MAY YOU MAY YOUR ENDEAVORS ALWAYS MEET WITH SUCCESS.
THIS IS NOT MEAH SHEARIM THIS IS NOT LUBAVITCH THIS IS YIDDISHKEIT THROUGHOUT THE WORLD
(9/19/2012 11:09:10 AM)
(10/12/2012 2:26:40 AM)
280
Kol Hakavod 2
Mrs. Lerman, Hatzlacha Rabba, and keep up the good work!
(10/27/2012 9:17:53 PM)
281
not the rebbe's way?
if you follow the rebbe's inventions, he always came up at a sicha saying that people think that this and this thing is not according to the way of Lubavitch, and than the rebbe went in to explain how not only the invention fits lubavitch it even brings out the way of lubavitch in a much deeper way.

same here, it's not the way of lubavitch? don't worry there's a way where to make it lubavitch and not just simple lubavitch but shpitz chasidus
(10/29/2012 1:29:41 PM)
282
Good for You
Kol HaKavod & Hatzlacha Rabba to Mrs. Lerman!

Keep up the good work!
(2/17/2013 12:01:27 PM)
283
Thank you
My opinion is that when you live your life with tznius, people begin to notice more and more what kind of person you are and focus less on what you are wearing. That doesn't mean you shouldn't express yourself, but keeping the halakha is what Hashem wants and doing so makes us closer to Him. When we dress modestly we can focus on our inner selves not our outer. What you wear gives an image to the world. What do you want that image to be?
(9/5/2013 9:34:26 PM)
284
Hashem will bless you!!
Many times I also hear from people in CH that it is harable to see what is going on with Tznius. You must never cry we need to hug you and bless you for protecting our community our CHILDREN. I wish you could speak with the young girls who perhaps forgot what they learned or they are confused because of difficulties they had in the system.
May Hashem strengthen you to continue and see the fruit of all your sincere efforts. Much Much Hatzlocha
(1/21/2014 8:22:13 PM)
What's Your Opinion? Post a Comment
Title:

Your Comment:


Comments must be approved before being published. Thank You!

Make COLlive® your homepage | Contact Us
© 2014 COLLIVE.com