COLlive’s breaking news about the Semi-Sweet Chocolate Chips of Trader Joe’s being labels Kosher Dairy, has received mixed reactions when it was first posted last Wednesday.
Some wondered why it was worthy of mentioning, while others couldn’t fathom living without them.
The story was “Liked” 359 on Facebook and led to follow-up reports from JTA news agency, the Jewish Journal of Los Angeles.
Even the corporate headquarters of the grocery chain were compelled to respond with a clarification email to store managers after they getting nationwide requests:
“The nature of the product has not changed, what has changed is the cleaning process used for the equipment that bags the chips. The supplier, who manufactures both milk and semi-sweet chips exclusively for Trader Joe’s, has switched from a wet cleaning process to a dry cleaning process. While the causes for this change are unknown, it is warranting these necessary label changes, which include allergen warnings.”
Rabbi Yair Hoffman reporting for VIN News has spoken to Rabbi Don Yoel Levy, head of OK Laboratories to clarify some of the issues involved in the switch of this chocolate chip which is one of the few products that were parve and contained both cocoa butter as well as chocolate liquor.
Here are excepts of the interview from VIN News:
Q: Thank you for speaking with us. Rabbi, are you aware of the magnitude of the nationwide outcry that the OK Dairy designation on Trader Joe’s chocolate chips has caused?
Yes. We are. It is nationwide. My daughter was in Boston and tried to buy some of the OK Pareve kind, only to find that all Trader Joe’s chocolate chips were sold out. It is not only in the east and west coast. It is throughout the country it seems.
Q: It seems that the nation will be deprived of high end pareve chocolate chips. Can you elaborate a bit on how this situation developed?
Let me give you a bit of the history. We at the OK are the pioneers of making pareve chocolate in America. When I first started working in the kosher industry, people would make pareve and milchig chocolate on the same lines. Cleaning lines is a difficult thing when it comes to chocolate, as you cannot kasher with water. It requires koshering with something else which has halachic problems as well.
At any rate, we started off with a factory in Williamsburg and we succeeded in making two production lines – one for milk chocolate and one for pareve chocolate. We carried this over elsewhere. We are attuned to the need for separation. It is much more difficult in a chocolate plant than elsewhere. By chocolate this is not easy.
Q: What happened specifically here though?
Over here at the Trader Joe’s chocolate bits – the lines are completely separate. We did run into a problem here where we were having problems in the filling line – that’s where they pack the chips into the bags.
We went down there a year ago with Rabbi Lazer Teitelbaum, our Rabbinic Coordinator, and we set up a certain system where they would monitor the packaging. There is a hopper there which needs to be cleaned out each time there is a switch.
Q: Did they have specific days between runs – when they would switch off?
Yes they do, but the filling line is used when needed.
Q: So why isn’t a system put in place to clean it out?
There was a system set to clean it out. The company decided that they do not want to continue with the system in place cleaning it out because of the expense involved.
Whenever there is a situation where a factory also has dairy production there is a chance that powder in the air will go from one side of production to the other. Things happen in plants. They decided to just write that it may contain dairy. Also, companies are very hesitant to write that it is dairy free because of possible law suits in case there is a mix-up. It can even be a reason to close the company.
Q: So this was a decision of the company that produces the chocolate bits for Trader Joe’s?
Yes. If they write on it may contain milk, they are better off. They said we do not want to take responsibility any more. This means now that not only will the chocolate be made on dairy equipment – there may even be dairy in the pareve chocolate.
Q: So, am I to understand that you had a good system in place and the company decided to change it?
Yes. We actually utilized a system that they had in place and determined that this was good enough for Kashrus production as well to keep it pareve. We had other procedures too – and testing in the quality control lab. It was working.
Q: How often was or is this company visited by Mashgichim?
This was a company with semi-monthly visits – that is every two weeks. This is a company with a strict system in place that had very little day to day changes.
Q: So until there is a change here, this may be a serious problem. In OK laboratories do you have any other chocolate chip manufacturer that uses both the chocolate liquor and real cocoa butter?
Yes, Blommers has chocolate chips with real cocoa butter.
Q: Can’t the company be convinced to switch back to the old system that was in place?
They are afraid of allergens so they do not want to go there. They would have to invest a certain amount of money to keep the bags completely allergen free.
Q: Why can’t they just build another packing line? If they do have separate production lines, can’t they rather simply build a second packaging line?
The truth is that they could but that would involve a tremendous expense. But who knows? The amount of pressure on Trader Joe’s is so great because of this that they may well work out some sort of a deal where they would pay for another packing line.
Q: Can you perhaps come up with an alternative system which is good for kashrus purposes but not allergens?
Once they don’t care about the dairy, it would be very difficult.
Q: How about with a camera system? Do you use cameras at all in your factories?
Cameras are extremely boring to watch and are difficult to implement in the practical world of Kashrus. We do it in restaurants but only as a back up. We do it so can check on it later. It would not be feasible to do it in a factory.
Q: So who can resolve this crisis now?
It’s in Trader Joe’s hands. People at first blamed us. But we wanted to have a supervision there with the highest integrity. If they want to keep it pareve they would have to speak to their producer and work out arranging for a new packing line. We would welcome it.
Q: Is this OK Dairy designation L’Chumrah or M’Ikar Hadin?
This is a question for Poskim. I would not use it for pareve under the current system.
Q: But we could theoretically say that there is bitul B’shishim here or bitul Chad B’Trei for each package. At this point the ingredients are still pareve, and it is not a davar sh’b’minyan so the laws of Bitul in Yore Deah 110 would still apply, would they not?
The consumer would not know if they ever changed the ingredients either, it would be very dangerous and certainly l’halacha it must be labeled dairy by the kosher supervising agency. Also, once something is labeled “OK D” we can no longer guarantee that the dark chocolate is actually pareve. There could be an equipment change – meaning it could now be produced on dairy equipment. It is also possible that some ingredients might change to dairy. The OK would absolutely refuse to guarantee any pareve status.
Q: Agreed on that. I guess each person should ask their Posaik and would have to check regularly. Just a quick side-question – does the OK use the same designations of RC (Rabbinic Coordinator) and RFR (Rabbinic Field Representative) that the OU does?
Yes we do. Our system is a bit different though. In the OK, the RCs also go to the factories.
Q: How big is the OK?
We have 60 people in our office and over 350 people in the field.
Q: Who are the Poskim of the OK? The one’s that Paskin the difficult halachic shailos?
We have two. Rabbi Menachem Meyer Weissmandl and Rabbi Asher Eckstein.
Thank you so much for your time and insight. Hatzlacha.
lav davka – people like pareve cookies etc. for shabbos and after meat
#16, do you mean Chalav Yisroel? am sure plenty of people will still buy OK-D and TJ’s will make lots of money off of them. If we cold convince everyone to keep Chalav Yisroel, then OK-D would not exist and companies would either keep them kosher or not at all.
Whole Foods has delicious chocolate bits, with chocolate liquor and chocolate butter, certified by the OK.
#16 and others, why do you say only Trader Joe’s sold such kosher pareve chocolate? I’m a bit confused.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/187133011409388/ We are trying to get into a large Newspaper regarding this. We want trader joes to switch back!
the right designation on these products is important because as a mom I look at a parev label to know if I can give it to my son. Not labeling milchik is not only a kashrus issue but could be a danger to life!!!!
Not all companies always write the allergens as there is different legislation in diffrent places and lots of us rely (to a degree) on the parev label. All the allergic people should remember, however, don’t put something new in your mouth if you don’t have an EpiPen in your hand!
I hear the shoprite brand is pareve, dont know about taste.
And #9 – Paskesz, Liebers etc. do not use real cocoa butter and liquor! Trader Joe’s was the only one out there making “real” kosher pareve chocolate chips! I’m not a baker but I tasted them a few times and they were awesome. GENUINE.
#14- Who said a donor would stop giving to a Chabad house?
Most importantly: I WISH ONE OF THE KOSHER-BRAND MANUFACTURERS WOULD STEP UP TO THE PLATE AND MAKE CHOCOLATE CHIPS THE WAY THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE MADE!
There are people who are lactose-intolerant or highly allergic to dairy. If they unknowingly ingested something with dairy ingredients it could, G-d forbid, lead to death. Not only does this change from pareve to dairy affect the kosher consumer, but vegan people also cannot consume dairy. One a product is labeled Dairy (OK does not use DE- dairy equipment designation) the manufacturer would not need to disclose when they actually would switch to dairy ingredients. TJCC are top quality chocolate made with cocoa butter and liqueur; other brands are choc flavored and are mostly sugar. You could buy your own… Read more »
I have to say the interviewer is quite possible one of the dumbest, most sensationalist reporters around. What kind of questions are these? They are so leading and loaded. OK is paid to check and maintain kashrus supervision. If their customers do not want to anymore since it costs more money, the OK cannot force them to. I do not see why everyone is blaming them. As for chocolate chips… It is sad that a once parve product will now be milchig. So, stop eating them. The last time I checked, chocolate chips were not a major food group. I… Read more »
You cannot rely on bitul lechatchila
If these are excerpts from the interview, I feel sorry for the Don.
Levi
Do you think Lieber or Paskesz have a masgiach tmidi on their nosh or OU sits and watches cheerios baking? or the paper cups? the bttled water (derech agav there is a bottled water that has an OU-D…) My friend, anything that does not have wine, fish, meat, (milk leochlei cholov akum) does not have a mashgiach, big companies keep doing the same thing for years, so they know that a Rabbi appears at least once or twice a month un -announced and checks them out thoroughly, If they want to go treif- they will not lie they don’t need… Read more »
Is this all these women have to scream about? I’m happy for them, this should always be their biggest problem.
You have no idea how many women are going nuts (pun intended) over this. You’d think there was a shortage of bread or milk the way they are screaming. Someone I know bought a MASSIVE amount of packets of the Pareve ones when she saw them, cleaning TJ out. I prefer to save my energies for other things so I buy Liebers or Paskez
Q: How often was or is this company visited by Mashgichim?
This was a company with semi-monthly visits – that is every two weeks. This is a company with a strict system in place that had very little day to day changes.
GIVE ME A BREACK! YOU ARE SAYING THAT 90% OF THE TIME A FACTORY WITH “LITTLE CHANGES DAILY” IS MASHGIACH FREE??? WHO DO WE TRUST ‘MR JOE”? MAYBE HE KNOWS YORE DEAH BY HEART…
EAT AT YOUR OWN RISK MY FRIEND!!!
BOUN APPETIT!!!!
WHO DETERMINES
“so the laws of Bitul in Yore Deah 110 would still apply”
I believe the laws of bitul yavesh beyavesh are found in YD 109. Siman 110 discusses davar shebiminyan, kavua and sfek sfeika.
Eating kosher makes our neshama shine!
I have never heard anything funnier in my entire life. If people really care this much about CHOCOLATE CHIPS I think I’m going to cry. It is almost as sad as taking the time to leave comments on here!!
in the word of Donal Trump.. YOU’RE FIRED!
Thank you Rabbis Levy and Hoffman for this interesting and informative interview, and to COL for posting it.
Need 2 outside poskim is there not in chabad poskim they can relay on?
Hagaon Reb Laizer Teitelbaum is not enough….
What’s with all our Crown Heights rabbonim?
I’d rather be disappointed due to HONESTY than to be FOOLED by GENEIVA and lies!
Boruch Hashem the industry is keeping true to not what brings money, but what brings the light of the Aibishter into the world! đŸ™‚
Moshiach NOW!